Conner McGovern: Starting LG battle

charron

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To be fair Williams isn't exactly the walking example of health. He's started 70% of the snaps 1 time in the last 4 years
Agreed that he's good not great but not buying "hardly misses any snaps". He had 4 knee surgeries in a 3 year span and has only started 70% of the snaps once in the last 4 years.

To be that injury prone at such a young age is concerning


I am unaware of 4 surgeries but knew about the torn acl in 2019. But he's only been in the league 3 years unless your going back to his college days?

Williams missed 3 games in 2018, 5 games in 2019, 0 games in 2020
McGovern has missed 16 games in 2019, 2 games in 2020.
 

McKDaddy

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PFF graded williams better overall. mcGovern did hold an edge in the run game but was pretty bad in pass protect.

he improved dramatically in pass pro by the end of the year, imo. that's all I'm saying is that a guy who has small sample size was showing that he might be able to do some things better than a guy who's had 3 years. gives me some hope that he might be an upgrade.
 

charron

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he improved dramatically in pass pro by the end of the year, imo. that's all I'm saying is that a guy who has small sample size was showing that he might be able to do some things better than a guy who's had 3 years. gives me some hope that he might be an upgrade.


Sure there's hope but Williams graded out 16th at left guard last year so that would be a huge jump for McGovern to go from not able to beat Williams out to better. The hype for backups is way to big. Just like the anae annointing thread.
 

buybuydandavis

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LOL .. Oh my good Laawrd, dude .. what ancient 60’s AFL level of football mind are you even dreaming about ? :lmao:
Are you living in just your own traditions ?

Every single, physical level element that you are trying to describe as what a LG should be ,…. is exactly what Zack Martin has done since he’s been in NFL – mobile, pulling, hit moving targets, 2nd level of defenders, standing up vs bigger players .. and he’s a RG at that !

You’d like to have both OGs on both sides, that can fit the ideal physical bill for such task and duties, but it’s not like they are always just falling off apple trees.
Ironically OG is exactly what the Cowboys had in mind, when they very luckily signed Lael Collins as a vastly surprising undrafted rookie FA. (and well most of us all know that story)
They had no intentions of him playing outside at OT, because of what they deemed as Not prototypical-ideal arm length.
But the heir apparent for Doug Free; Chaz Green failure forced that plan outside at RT, made it permanent, and it's been a fixture since.
La'el made his move to RT permanent by being a damn good RT. The Cowboys were just wrong about his arm length being a fundamental limit to what La'el could do at T.

I suspect the same is true of Williams at T, but that will probably never be put to the test.
 

buybuydandavis

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guy had one injury, its not a career defining trend.
if you believe Williams is better that's your point of view.
McGovern seemed to be better at holding his ground. that's a potential improvement in my opinion.

Anchoring is the weakest part of Williams' game, and the strongest for McGovern. Now compare every other facet of G play. Williams wins everything else but drive blocking.
 

DuncanIso

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And it makes more sense for McGovern to compete at C.

As much as many hate Williams, he had a good year, and that was coming off a knee injury where he was still wearing a brace in August. PFF had him ranked 16th out of 80 guards on an oline with little help around him. Tough row to hoe.

This year, entirely healthy, after a year that he stayed healthy, with Tyron to his left, and Biadasz/McGovern to his right with a real offseason to prepare for C. Easier row to hoe, for a player who is still only 24. That ranking should only go up.

Meanwhile, McGovern was 47/80 guards, while Biadasz was 32/36 centers. That's where the competition should be. If McGovern can't take it, he's now ready to back up *all* interior oline positions, and we don't have to carry a backup just for C.

Meanwhile, I hope they train Williams at LT at least. He's probably significantly better than Knight or Steele.

Between McGovern, Biadasz, and Williams, I think we've got 3 legitimate starters for 2 starting positions who are just better than our backups. We should plan for the contingency of McGovern or Williams getting used as a backup to get our best players on the field in case of injury at other positions.

I think knee braces should be mandatory for the OL.
 

DuncanIso

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The pattern from Philbin seemed to be "play *my* guys". I thought his choices pretty much sucked personnelwise all last year.

Didn't crosstrain Williams at T.
Didn't give McGovern a chance at C - and he really just looked like a better player than Biadasz this year.
Didn't start Knight over Steele.

Playing Martin at T is probably what did in his calf. Been a long time since he had to kickslide like a T, and hadn't practiced it for years. Train Williams for T, which he played in college, backfill Williams with McGovern at LG. Easy Peasy.

not a Philbin fan.

he got the job because he is big buddies with Mike.

just like Nolan.
 

McKDaddy

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Anchoring is the weakest part of Williams' game, and the strongest for McGovern. Now compare every other facet of G play. Williams wins everything else but drive blocking.

I don't disagree with this but he's should be better given his time on the job.

I don't dislike Williams just think he is a marginal starter at G. Just doesn't seem to fit his natural abilities.
 

blueblood70

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I am unaware of 4 surgeries but knew about the torn acl in 2019. But he's only been in the league 3 years unless your going back to his college days?

Williams missed 3 games in 2018, 5 games in 2019, 0 games in 2020
McGovern has missed 16 games in 2019, 2 games in 2020.
shattered that narrative LOL those want a more reliable guy in CM and TRY hard tpo use the 8 games over 3 years and had a 100% healthy year as last year and the other guy 16 games and hasn't started a single full season let alone a game or 2..

always the backup pet cat..

reminds me of those wanted Doug Free gone for tears then after he left they saw the grass wasn't greener..Free was very good player like Cwill , PB AP NO but fans need to stop and realize you cant have that at all 5 spots..
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I don't disagree with this but he's should be better given his time on the job.

I don't dislike Williams just think he is a marginal starter at G. Just doesn't seem to fit his natural abilities.

What makes you think he hasn't gotten better? He has, he's gotten much better technically, which is why he still wins the large majority of those battles. He's just never going to be able to get stronger then power players. That's not who he is but then again, those guys are never ever going to get out on the second level and be able to target guys or get down the line to get a trap block in time etc.

I think it really comes down to what you want out of your scheme. Do you want a Guard who is mobile and can execute those kinds of blocks within your offense or do you want a guy who can't but will be able to play in more of a power blocking scheme? I mean, it would be great to have a guy who could do both but can we really afford to pay another Martin on the OL?
 

McKDaddy

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What makes you think he hasn't gotten better? He has, he's gotten much better technically, which is why he still wins the large majority of those battles. He's just never going to be able to get stronger then power players. That's not who he is but then again, those guys are never ever going to get out on the second level and be able to target guys or get down the line to get a trap block in time etc.

I think it really comes down to what you want out of your scheme. Do you want a Guard who is mobile and can execute those kinds of blocks within your offense or do you want a guy who can't but will be able to play in more of a power blocking scheme? I mean, it would be great to have a guy who could do both but can we really afford to pay another Martin on the OL?

I wasn't saying CWill hasn't gotten better, I was saying he should be better than McGovern considering the amount of playing time they have gotten respectively. (response to buybuyanddavis comment)

For me, the two primary assignments for a Guard are 1) be able to anchor down & not get pushed back in pass pro & 2) be able to get some push in the run game. Those are the two things he struggles most with. Those tend to get plays blown up before they have a chance. If McG can give us that, I think our line would be much better.

I believe he should be allowed to compete at T. See what he can do there and, in the meantime, use him as an on the move blocker in jumbo packages. He does move well & I would like to see what he could bring to the table before his contract is up.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I wasn't saying CWill hasn't gotten better, I was saying he should be better than McGovern considering the amount of playing time they have gotten respectively. (response to buybuyanddavis comment)

For me, the two primary assignments for a Guard are 1) be able to anchor down & not get pushed back in pass pro & 2) be able to get some push in the run game. Those are the two things he struggles most with. Those tend to get plays blown up before they have a chance. If McG can give us that, I think our line would be much better.

I believe he should be allowed to compete at T. See what he can do there and, in the meantime, use him as an on the move blocker in jumbo packages. He does move well & I would like to see what he could bring to the table before his contract is up.

OK, what makes you think he's not better then McGovern? I certainly think he is, based on what I've seen. McGovern hasn't show that he is capable of playing LG at a higher level.

I understand you have these two "Primary Assignments" for Guards but those two things may not be what is required of each Guard, depending on the scheme. What you point out here is all related to the run game. I mean, that's fine but, understand that there is more to the run game then just power football. In fact, we don't really run a lot of power sets anymore. We do more trapping and pulling then we do Power ISO. Add that to the fact that this team passes the ball at about 61% of the time. Williams is much better in pass protection and so, this allows him to grade out better overall. Williams is actually pretty valuable, in terms of what this Offense likes to do.

If he is our best LG, then he's our best LG. I never thought he should have been a Guard in the first place but that's what he was made into. It's not really a great idea to now try and turn him into a tackle IMO. It does not look as if we are going to move off of Smitty anytime soon. Collins is the RT so the only other option for Williams would be swing. How would that make any sense at all? You are going to move your starting LG, the best LG option we have to Swing Tackle and start a guy who hasn't proven he can be a better starter? Are we then going to change our Offense to accommodate McGovern and force everybody else to make adjustments just so that we can start McGovern, turn into a power run team?

What will Williams do if you move him to Tackle? Will he just be OK with playing Swing Tackle and being replaced as a starter or will he leave and sign elsewhere next season? I'm pretty sure he would be out the door so while I understand the thought process of playing Williams at Tackle, at this point you are basically forcing him out the door if you do that and for better or worse, going with McGovern as the starter. That, to me, does not sound wise. I just think we have to adjust our expectations on what the Offense is really looking for. They are not looking for Williams to be Larry Allen. They are looking for Williams to be John Hannah or Gene Upshaw.

All of this, I suspect, is irrelevant. I think Williams will be leaving in FA next year IMO. I don't think the team is going to pay him and if that's the case, then McGovern will likely end up being the starter in 22 but, I don't believe it will be because he is better. I think it will be because he will be the best option on the roster, once Williams eventually leaves. That's going to force a change in our scheme for sure because McGovern can't do the things Williams can do, as consistently. At least, he hasn't shown the ability to do so, to this point. So I would not be surprised to actually see McGovern get more playing time, after 8 or 10 games if we are not in the hunt. If we are, then Williams probably stays in place as starter and McGovern gets his chance to show what he can do after Williams leaves.

JMO
 

McKDaddy

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OK, what makes you think he's not better then McGovern? I certainly think he is, based on what I've seen. McGovern hasn't show that he is capable of playing LG at a higher level.

I understand you have these two "Primary Assignments" for Guards but those two things may not be what is required of each Guard, depending on the scheme. What you point out here is all related to the run game. I mean, that's fine but, understand that there is more to the run game then just power football. In fact, we don't really run a lot of power sets anymore. We do more trapping and pulling then we do Power ISO. Add that to the fact that this team passes the ball at about 61% of the time. Williams is much better in pass protection and so, this allows him to grade out better overall. Williams is actually pretty valuable, in terms of what this Offense likes to do.

If he is our best LG, then he's our best LG. I never thought he should have been a Guard in the first place but that's what he was made into. It's not really a great idea to now try and turn him into a tackle IMO. It does not look as if we are going to move off of Smitty anytime soon. Collins is the RT so the only other option for Williams would be swing. How would that make any sense at all? You are going to move your starting LG, the best LG option we have to Swing Tackle and start a guy who hasn't proven he can be a better starter? Are we then going to change our Offense to accommodate McGovern and force everybody else to make adjustments just so that we can start McGovern, turn into a power run team?

What will Williams do if you move him to Tackle? Will he just be OK with playing Swing Tackle and being replaced as a starter or will he leave and sign elsewhere next season? I'm pretty sure he would be out the door so while I understand the thought process of playing Williams at Tackle, at this point you are basically forcing him out the door if you do that and for better or worse, going with McGovern as the starter. That, to me, does not sound wise. I just think we have to adjust our expectations on what the Offense is really looking for. They are not looking for Williams to be Larry Allen. They are looking for Williams to be John Hannah or Gene Upshaw.

All of this, I suspect, is irrelevant. I think Williams will be leaving in FA next year IMO. I don't think the team is going to pay him and if that's the case, then McGovern will likely end up being the starter in 22 but, I don't believe it will be because he is better. I think it will be because he will be the best option on the roster, once Williams eventually leaves. That's going to force a change in our scheme for sure because McGovern can't do the things Williams can do, as consistently. At least, he hasn't shown the ability to do so, to this point. So I would not be surprised to actually see McGovern get more playing time, after 8 or 10 games if we are not in the hunt. If we are, then Williams probably stays in place as starter and McGovern gets his chance to show what he can do after Williams leaves.

JMO

To be clear, I want the best 5 on the field. Not suggesting we move anyone just to accommodate. That's the kind of bullcrap they did putting Lael at G just due to his pedigree when Leary was playing well. McG was looking pretty good in both phases by the end of the season IMO. Remember this will be third year of his rookie contract. Need to find out what you have in him as well.

I look at it more as CWill has played in 40 games, started 37 over three years (plus 2 post season games). We know what we have in him as a G. I agree he will likely leave as a FA unless something shifts the scales in his favor. If I'm a front office, I don't want to re-sign him as a starting G. I do want to see if he has any chance of being a T while still under contract. Just because Tyron wants to be able to play doesn't mean he will be able to. If CWill shows any promise as a T, you would at least have more information as to his worth on a new contract and an option to put him at RT and let Lael take over at his natural LT position if situation arose.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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To be clear, I want the best 5 on the field. Not suggesting we move anyone just to accommodate. That's the kind of bullcrap they did putting Lael at G just due to his pedigree when Leary was playing well. McG was looking pretty good in both phases by the end of the season IMO. Remember this will be third year of his rookie contract. Need to find out what you have in him as well.

I look at it more as CWill has played in 40 games, started 37 over three years (plus 2 post season games). We know what we have in him as a G. I agree he will likely leave as a FA unless something shifts the scales in his favor. If I'm a front office, I don't want to re-sign him as a starting G. I do want to see if he has any chance of being a T while still under contract. Just because Tyron wants to be able to play doesn't mean he will be able to. If CWill shows any promise as a T, you would at least have more information as to his worth on a new contract and an option to put him at RT and let Lael take over at his natural LT position if situation arose.

Well, I heard you on the tackle thing but how does that actually happen? I mean, you can't see what you have unless you demote him. He's not going to stay if you do that. So basically, you have Williams, who is better then McGovern. You say you want the best 5, well, Williams is the best LG we have so why do you want to see him at Tackle? That doesn't make sense. You want to take the best LG we have, and it's not close here on the difference, and see if you can waste the last year we have with him sitting on the bench?

Why? How does that make sense?
 

McKDaddy

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Well, I heard you on the tackle thing but how does that actually happen? I mean, you can't see what you have unless you demote him. He's not going to stay if you do that. So basically, you have Williams, who is better then McGovern. You say you want the best 5, well, Williams is the best LG we have so why do you want to see him at Tackle? That doesn't make sense. You want to take the best LG we have, and it's not close here on the difference, and see if you can waste the last year we have with him sitting on the bench?

Why? How does that make sense?

I don't know that he is the best LG. If he is, sure he plays this year but that tells me I'm looking to move on from all the G's after this year because I see him as the weak link on the line. If they can't beat him out, I've got to go G shopping for 2022 starter.

If he can possibly be a good T, that has value & I am less willing to let walk out the door. This is your last camp to get him some reps & evaluate. I'm trying to give the player the opportunity to change my mind. Right now, I know I'm not offering him a "market" contract as a G next offseason.
 

buybuydandavis

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I think knee bracesshould be mandatory for the OL.

Interesting idea. I wonder what the downsides are to wearing them.

I remember after Romo had the broken ribs, and played with some body armor for a few games after, thinking that he should just always wear that.
 

buybuydandavis

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OK, what makes you think he's not better then McGovern? I certainly think he is, based on what I've seen. McGovern hasn't show that he is capable of playing LG at a higher level.

I understand you have these two "Primary Assignments" for Guards but those two things may not be what is required of each Guard, depending on the scheme. What you point out here is all related to the run game. I mean, that's fine but, understand that there is more to the run game then just power football. In fact, we don't really run a lot of power sets anymore. We do more trapping and pulling then we do Power ISO. Add that to the fact that this team passes the ball at about 61% of the time. Williams is much better in pass protection and so, this allows him to grade out better overall. Williams is actually pretty valuable, in terms of what this Offense likes to do.

If he is our best LG, then he's our best LG. I never thought he should have been a Guard in the first place but that's what he was made into. It's not really a great idea to now try and turn him into a tackle IMO. It does not look as if we are going to move off of Smitty anytime soon. Collins is the RT so the only other option for Williams would be swing. How would that make any sense at all? You are going to move your starting LG, the best LG option we have to Swing Tackle and start a guy who hasn't proven he can be a better starter? Are we then going to change our Offense to accommodate McGovern and force everybody else to make adjustments just so that we can start McGovern, turn into a power run team?

What will Williams do if you move him to Tackle? Will he just be OK with playing Swing Tackle and being replaced as a starter or will he leave and sign elsewhere next season? I'm pretty sure he would be out the door so while I understand the thought process of playing Williams at Tackle, at this point you are basically forcing him out the door if you do that and for better or worse, going with McGovern as the starter. That, to me, does not sound wise. I just think we have to adjust our expectations on what the Offense is really looking for. They are not looking for Williams to be Larry Allen. They are looking for Williams to be John Hannah or Gene Upshaw.

All of this, I suspect, is irrelevant. I think Williams will be leaving in FA next year IMO. I don't think the team is going to pay him and if that's the case, then McGovern will likely end up being the starter in 22 but, I don't believe it will be because he is better. I think it will be because he will be the best option on the roster, once Williams eventually leaves. That's going to force a change in our scheme for sure because McGovern can't do the things Williams can do, as consistently. At least, he hasn't shown the ability to do so, to this point. So I would not be surprised to actually see McGovern get more playing time, after 8 or 10 games if we are not in the hunt. If we are, then Williams probably stays in place as starter and McGovern gets his chance to show what he can do after Williams leaves.

JMO

Williams with cross training at T is probably our best backup T, and McGovern could backfill for him at LG. Gets our best 5 players ere in case of a T injury. Both of those guys are better players than Knight and Steele.

Still probably worth it for this season, but would have been much better if they had been doing it all along to preserve and develop his LT play from college. Probably Dak would have been spared the Atlanta sackfest that set back his development.
 

buybuydandavis

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I don't disagree with this but he's should be better given his time on the job.

I don't dislike Williams just think he is a marginal starter at G. Just doesn't seem to fit his natural abilities.

Yeah, I assume McGovern keeps improving, but the arrow is probably still up for Williams as well. His main weakness has been a lack of power, and that develops as players get older, and he's still only 24. Still growing into his full power.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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I don't know that he is the best LG. If he is, sure he plays this year but that tells me I'm looking to move on from all the G's after this year because I see him as the weak link on the line. If they can't beat him out, I've got to go G shopping for 2022 starter.

If he can possibly be a good T, that has value & I am less willing to let walk out the door. This is your last camp to get him some reps & evaluate. I'm trying to give the player the opportunity to change my mind. Right now, I know I'm not offering him a "market" contract as a G next offseason.

Which brings us full circle. He's the starter, he's certainly graded out better then anybody else on the team at that position. He suits the Offense and what we do better. He's graded out as the 16th best Guard in the League so what is your plan here? You want to see the team go out and draft another 1st round Guard? I mean, outside of drafting that kind of talent, your not really going to upgrade Williams much. So is that what you are suggesting?

I'm not trying to argue with you here, I'm just trying to lay out the facts. I get it, he's not the kind of player you like, he's not Larry Allen. I mean, I get it, I loved Larry Allen and that power offense, it's the kind of Football I grew up with. But it's not what we are doing today and I don't see us spending that kind of Draft capital to upgrade that position. I mean, do you see us drafting a Guard next year?
 
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