Twitter: One AFC defensive coach, Cowboys need to give Zeke some of Dak money

Jstopper · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Okay yourself.

Let me know when you get your own NFL team Mr. "NFL IQ".

dont need my own team to know that someone who thinks Dalton throws better than Dak isn’t worth my time

Hadenough · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Depends on your definition. There's a TON of dynamics that go into a pass play...but..."throw"....is a very specific motion. I happen to think Andy's "throw"...well LOOKS better. It's sharper and usually a better spin.

That doesn't mean Andy is a better QB.

If this fails your precious "IQ test"...so be it.

He only knows what he hears about Dak. I think he is blind.

Cebrin · Jul 15, 2021

Hawkeye0202 said:
Many make not believe but there's a lot more respect for Zeke leaguewide than you realize.

I bet he was scared of thr Ewoks the first time he saw Star Wars ans just never recovered.

RonnieT24 · Jul 15, 2021

Dre11 said:
it's still indication he struggled

So were his 8 games with 3 yard per carry or less. If Zeke had had that many games with such low production he'd already be tarred and feathered .. For the record Zeke did have 3 games of 3 ypc or less. But apparently his three truly crappy games were more "struggling" than Pollard's 8. Go figure.

RonnieT24 · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Depends on your definition. There's a TON of dynamics that go into a pass play...but..."throw"....is a very specific motion. I happen to think Andy's "throw"...well LOOKS better. It's sharper and usually a better spin.

That doesn't mean Andy is a better QB.

If this fails your precious "IQ test"...so be it.

I'm not sure why this is even part of the discussion. Jeff George threw some of the prettiest balls and had one of the purest passing motions the game has ever seen. No one will ever mistake him for a great QB. The only thing that has ever mattered about throwing the ball is does it get where it needs to be.. meaning where the receiver can catch it and the defender can't get a hand on it. All other factors are null and void IMHO. I don't care if the QB shot puts the damn ball as long as it gets past the defense and into the receiver's hands. The only reason to care about mechanics and footwork at all are for consistency and repeatability sake. However there is a long list of QBs who have shown that they don't need perfect mechanics or to have their feet set a certain way to deliver the ball consistently on the money. We are watching two of the best ever at doing that in Mahomes and Rodgers. While Dak is not on their level as a pure passer, the similarities in his ability to get the ball where it needs to be without it always looking pretty are there. And I have been watching this game for 50+ years and cannot think of a QB whom I can honestly say throws/threw better on the run than Dak. As he continues to evolve in the pocket we have seen his numbers really start to take off. I'm excited to see where it goes from here.

SteveTheCowboy · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
I'm not sure why this is even part of the discussion. Jeff George threw some of the prettiest balls and had one of the purest passing motions the game has ever seen. No one will ever mistake him for a great QB. The only thing that has ever mattered about throwing the ball is does it get where it needs to be.. meaning where the receiver can catch it and the defender can't get a hand on it. All other factors are null and void IMHO. I don't care if the QB shot puts the damn ball as long as it gets past the defense and into the receiver's hands. The only reason to care about mechanics and footwork at all are for consistency and repeatability sake. However there is a long list of QBs who have shown that they don't need perfect mechanics or to have their feet set a certain way to deliver the ball consistently on the money. We are watching two of the best ever at doing that in Mahomes and Rodgers. While Dak is not on their level as a pure passer, the similarities in his ability to get the ball where it needs to be without it always looking pretty are there. And I have been watching this game for 50+ years and cannot think of a QB whom I can honestly say throws/threw better on the run than Dak. As he continues to evolve in the pocket we have seen his numbers really start to take off. I'm excited to see where it goes from here.

Somebody brought it up...then there looked to be some defensive response. I wanted it known that *if* one thinks Andy "throws a better ball"....it doesn't mean he's a better QB. It would seem you agree.

It struck me as a "don't dare say anything bad about Dak". When I watch highlights of say... "2020 zeke" Dak sure has some challenges being accurate (more speficially...leading the receiver for the most efficient and optimal result. Zeke reaches backward to catch a ball while running toward the sideline. I can point those out if I must...but it's moot. People will see what they want to see. And there's always a PILE of "buts".

Judging Andy's effectiveness/worthiness based on last year? Silly. Water under the bridge now.

And once again I say...I am perfectly fine with Dak as our QB. EVERYBODY ALWAYS has things they can improve on.

SteveTheCowboy · Jul 15, 2021

Jstopper said:
dont need my own team to know that someone who thinks Dalton throws better than Dak isn’t worth my time

OOHH...somebody has a slightly different opinion than you. Gosh....whatever shall I do?

RonnieT24 · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Somebody brought it up...then there looked to be some defensive response. I wanted it known that *if* one thinks Andy "throws a better ball"....it doesn't mean he's a better QB. It would seem you agree.

I guess the issue I would have would be the definition of "a better ball." If his throws are completed at a lower rate, for fewer yards per attempt, go for fewer TDs and more INTs on a percentage basis how exactly are Andy's balls "better?" Maybe his mechanics and footwork are better? Maybe he's more accurate when running around in shorts or in warmups when there is no actual football being played? I don't know. I can find no empirical evidence to support the "better ball" assertion. Pretty much every number you can look at says different. That is by means meant to say "Dalton sucks" or anything so Neanderthal as that.. Dalton is a serviceable NFL starter. But I think we can both agree that he's several notches below Dak.. and falling.

Cowboy Lover said:
It struck me as a "don't dare say anything bad about Dak". When I watch highlights of say... "2020 zeke" Dak sure has some challenges being accurate (more speficially...leading the receiver for the most efficient and optimal result. Zeke reaches backward to catch a ball while running toward the sideline. I can point those out if I must...but it's moot. People will see what they want to see. And there's always a PILE of "buts".

Judging Andy's effectiveness/worthiness based on last year? Silly. Water under the bridge now.

And once again I say...I am perfectly fine with Dak as our QB. EVERYBODY ALWAYS has things they can improve on.

This is 100% true.. Dak is far from the finished product IMHO. The good news is with his work ethic and determination I believe he will continue to improve for several more years. I would like to address the ball placement concern you mentioned above though. Dak absolutely does not throw those little swing passes consistently well. I don't think there is any denying that. However when citing that he sometimes does not lead receivers I think people often ignore the third component in the passing equation.. the defender. Often leading a receiver would pull him into a big hit or place the ball where the defender has as good a chance at the ball as the receiver. Dak is clearly conservative by nature when it comes to putting the ball in harm's way so I think he's pretty much always going to err on the side of putting the ball where the receiver is between the ball and the defender when the defender is in his line of sight. I think we're just going to have to live with that particular aspect of his game. I'm okay with that one.. I think he will take chances here and there but I don't ever expect him to make a ton of high risk throws like that. Either that or lead the receiver into traffic or have him reaching over his head over the middle exposing his ribs. As one who ran more than a few routes across the middle believe me when I tell you that the low and away ball or the slightly behind ball is preferred over the get me blown up ball ..

Hadenough · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
I'm not sure why this is even part of the discussion. Jeff George threw some of the prettiest balls and had one of the purest passing motions the game has ever seen. No one will ever mistake him for a great QB. The only thing that has ever mattered about throwing the ball is does it get where it needs to be.. meaning where the receiver can catch it and the defender can't get a hand on it. All other factors are null and void IMHO. I don't care if the QB shot puts the damn ball as long as it gets past the defense and into the receiver's hands. The only reason to care about mechanics and footwork at all are for consistency and repeatability sake. However there is a long list of QBs who have shown that they don't need perfect mechanics or to have their feet set a certain way to deliver the ball consistently on the money. We are watching two of the best ever at doing that in Mahomes and Rodgers. While Dak is not on their level as a pure passer, the similarities in his ability to get the ball where it needs to be without it always looking pretty are there. And I have been watching this game for 50+ years and cannot think of a QB whom I can honestly say throws/threw better on the run than Dak. As he continues to evolve in the pocket we have seen his numbers really start to take off. I'm excited to see where it goes from here.

You make it sound like Dak has made all this progress from where he was. Other than this hip swivel he is still the same guy who has become marginally better just by virtue of being in the league. He is still is terrible in the RedZone. That's what matters along with a consistent short to mid passing game hitting players on the move with good ball placment. He has a trio of WRs as good as almost any other 3 and a very good RB. This team needs to play keep away with the offense. Daks biggest stats have come against poor teams or once the Cowboys have fallen way behind. When I look at Dak I see another Kirk Cousins and there is no way Cousins will ever win a SB.

SteveTheCowboy · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
I guess the issue I would have would be the definition of "a better ball." If his throws are completed at a lower rate, for fewer yards per attempt, go for fewer TDs and more INTs on a percentage basis how exactly are Andy's balls "better?" Maybe his mechanics and footwork are better? Maybe he's more accurate when running around in shorts or in warmups when there is no actual football being played? I don't know. I can find no empirical evidence to support the "better ball" assertion. Pretty much every number you can look at says different. That is by means meant to say "Dalton sucks" or anything so Neanderthal as that.. Dalton is a serviceable NFL starter. But I think we can both agree that he's several notches below Dak.. and falling.

This is 100% true.. Dak is far from the finished product IMHO. The good news is with his work ethic and determination I believe he will continue to improve for several more years. I would like to address the ball placement concern you mentioned above though. Dak absolutely does not throw those little swing passes consistently well. I don't think there is any denying that. However when citing that he sometimes does not lead receivers I think people often ignore the third component in the passing equation.. the defender. Often leading a receiver would pull him into a big hit or place the ball where the defender has as good a chance at the ball as the receiver. Dak is clearly conservative by nature when it comes to putting the ball in harm's way so I think he's pretty much always going to err on the side of putting the ball where the receiver is between the ball and the defender when the defender is in his line of sight. I think we're just going to have to live with that particular aspect of his game. I'm okay with that one.. I think he will take chances here and there but I don't ever expect him to make a ton of high risk throws like that. Either that or lead the receiver into traffic or have him reaching over his head over the middle exposing his ribs. As one who ran more than a few routes across the middle believe me when I tell you that the low and away ball or the slightly behind ball is preferred over the get me blown up ball ..

I guess you didn't read what I said carefully enough.

I said there are a LOT of dynamics that go into a pass play. Like evn how the receiver is running/cutting/angling his route....that can effect how a PASS PLAY "looks" .

But the "throwing motion"...is very specific. Wasn't it Nooch? Who people laughed at for throwing side arm? It doesn't mean it was a bad pass play.

"behind preferable to getting blown up"...I mean yeah...if ...*IF* there's someone bearing down. But I am not talking about that. You are "arguing" (stating your case) about all the myriad details on a PASS PLAY...which isn't what my point was.

Look....never mind. All good.

RonnieT24 · Jul 15, 2021

Hadenough said:
You make it sound like Dak has made all this progress from where he was. Other than this hip swivel he is still the same guy who has become marginally better just by virtue of being in the league. He is still is terrible in the RedZone. That's what matters along with a consistent short to mid passing game hitting players on the move with good ball placment. He has a trio of WRs as good as almost any other 3 and a very good RB. This team needs to play keep away with the offense. Daks biggest stats have come against poor teams or once the Cowboys have fallen way behind. When I look at Dak I see another Kirk Cousins and there is no way Cousins will ever win a SB.

I don't understand the need to continue to repeat fallacy after fallacy about our players.

"He is still terrible in the red zone.."

Really? In his career Dak has a passer rating of 91.4 in the red zone and has thrown 59 touchdowns against 7 interceptions.. I don't think any further analysis is needed here.

"His biggest stats have come against poor teams or once the Cowboys have fallen way behind.."

His two best games in 2020 came against Cleveland and Seattle.. both of which made the playoffs. He feasted on some bad teams in 2019 but he also hung a 120+ passer rating on the Rams defense and a 100+ rating on both the Vikings and the Eagles defenses.. all three of those were quality defenses and pretty much are year in and year out. Well Minny fell off in 2020 but Dak did not have the good fortune of facing them.

"This team needs to play keep away offense..."

Now this I agree with.. but not because of Dak.. but because our defense has been average to below average for the better part of a decade.

Rockport · Jul 15, 2021

Hawkeye0202 said:
Many make not believe but there's a lot more respect for Zeke leaguewide than you realize.

Either the Jets or Jacksonville DC.

Rockport · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Somebody brought it up...then there looked to be some defensive response. I wanted it known that *if* one thinks Andy "throws a better ball"....it doesn't mean he's a better QB. It would seem you agree.

It struck me as a "don't dare say anything bad about Dak". When I watch highlights of say... "2020 zeke" Dak sure has some challenges being accurate (more speficially...leading the receiver for the most efficient and optimal result. Zeke reaches backward to catch a ball while running toward the sideline. I can point those out if I must...but it's moot. People will see what they want to see. And there's always a PILE of "buts".

Judging Andy's effectiveness/worthiness based on last year? Silly. Water under the bridge now.

And once again I say...I am perfectly fine with Dak as our QB. EVERYBODY ALWAYS has things they can improve on.

You think Dalton is a better QB than Dak? :lmao2:

Dre11 · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
I don't understand the need to continue to repeat fallacy after fallacy about our players.

"He is still terrible in the red zone.."

Really? In his career Dak has a passer rating of 91.4 in the red zone and has thrown 59 touchdowns against 7 interceptions.. I don't think any further analysis is needed here.

"His biggest stats have come against poor teams or once the Cowboys have fallen way behind.."

His two best games in 2020 came against Cleveland and Seattle.. both of which made the playoffs. He feasted on some bad teams in 2019 but he also hung a 120+ passer rating on the Rams defense and a 100+ rating on both the Vikings and the Eagles defenses.. all three of those were quality defenses and pretty much are year in and year out. Well Minny fell off in 2020 but Dak did not have the good fortune of facing them.

"This team needs to play keep away offense..."

Now this I agree with.. but not because of Dak.. but because our defense has been average to below average for the better part of a decade.

yeah I don't know what he was talking about. dude coming at someone when his analysis is all wrong :muttley:

Ranched · Jul 15, 2021

Hadenough said:
When I look at Dak I see another Kirk Cousins and there is no way Cousins will ever win a SB.

MaineBoy · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
I don't understand the need to continue to repeat fallacy after fallacy about our players.

"He is still terrible in the red zone.."

Really? In his career Dak has a passer rating of 91.4 in the red zone and has thrown 59 touchdowns against 7 interceptions.. I don't think any further analysis is needed here.

"His biggest stats have come against poor teams or once the Cowboys have fallen way behind.."

His two best games in 2020 came against Cleveland and Seattle.. both of which made the playoffs. He feasted on some bad teams in 2019 but he also hung a 120+ passer rating on the Rams defense and a 100+ rating on both the Vikings and the Eagles defenses.. all three of those were quality defenses and pretty much are year in and year out. Well Minny fell off in 2020 but Dak did not have the good fortune of facing them.

"This team needs to play keep away offense..."

Now this I agree with.. but not because of Dak.. but because our defense has been average to below average for the better part of a decade.

Great post RonnieT. I’m in the middle on Dak and want him to just win, Baby. I think he is a good QB but have also seen some accuracy issues from time to time that hadenough brought up. But you used some facts in a classy way that were certainly informative to me and a data point to consider in drawing our own conclusions on Dak.

Corso · Jul 15, 2021

MaineBoy said:
Great post RonnieT. I’m in the middle on Dak and want him to just win, Baby. I think he is a good QB but have also seen some accuracy issues from time to time that hadenough brought up. But you used some facts in a classy way that were certainly informative to me and a data point to consider in drawing our own conclusions on Dak.

@RonnieT24 is one of the very darn good posters here, whether you agree with him, or not.

SteveTheCowboy · Jul 15, 2021

Rockport said:
You think Dalton is a better QB than Dak?

GATDMAN dude I said over and over...no. What the he ll is wrong with you? Seriously dude...what is wrong with you.

SteveTheCowboy · Jul 15, 2021

Cowboy Lover said:
Depends on your definition. There's a TON of dynamics that go into a pass play...but..."throw"....is a very specific motion. I happen to think Andy's "throw"...well LOOKS better. It's sharper and usually a better spin.

That doesn't mean Andy is a better QB.

If this fails your precious "IQ test"...so be it.

See rockport ya ja. .....

i never said ever....andy is better...in fact.. i have said OVER and OVER the OPPOSITE.

Shells addled your brain. It's the only explanation. You can't even read you just want to pick fights like a mad crazy weirdo.

I don't know for the life of me why admin lets you carry on like this.

Haimerej · Jul 15, 2021

RonnieT24 said:
"He is still terrible in the red zone.."

Really? In his career Dak has a passer rating of 91.4 in the red zone and has thrown 59 touchdowns against 7 interceptions.. I don't think any further analysis is needed here.

Further analysis is definitely needed. How do those numbers compare to his contemporaries?

I mean, in 2016 he was tied for 16th with guys like Sam Bradford in redzone TDs. He was 14th in 2017, 21st in 2018, and 13th in 2019. You're not showing his completion %, either. I bet it's not very good. I know it's below 50% for his career inside the 10.

Twitter: One AFC defensive coach, Cowboys need to give Zeke some of Dak money

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