Put Justin Herbert under the same microscope you put Dak under

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Hawkeye19 said:
You’re right. No one in this forum bashes Dak lol…

You said Herbert was a “legit gunslinger”. What do you say Dak is? Answer the question this time please

Because when a play breaks down, or when Herbert is stuck, he’ll cock it and launch the ball downfield and cross his fingers. He challenges coverages deep regularly, even when there may not be anything there. He will keep plays alive just to get better options downfield.

He has one of the lowest checkdown %’s in the NFL, by way of RB/TE catches, and has one of the strongest arms in the league.
Rarely do you see rookie QBs with 100-catch Wide Receivers. He was feeding Allen all over the field.

Many of these things are the opposite of Dak Prescott. Dak is a patient, efficient, take-what-the-defense-gives-him quarterback. Gunslinger is a very specific style of QB play that was more Tony Romo than Dak Prescott.

Hawkeye19 · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
Because when a play breaks down, or when Herbert is stuck, he’ll cock it and launch the ball downfield and cross his fingers. He challenges coverages deep regularly, even when there may not be anything there. He will keep plays alive just to get better options downfield.

He has one of the lowest checkdown %’s in the NFL, by way of RB catches, ypa, and and third down %.

Many of these things are the opposite of Dak Prescott. Dak is a patient, efficient, take-what-the-defense-gives-him quarterback. Gunslinger is a very specific style of QB play that no one has confused Dak with.

Laughable.

So in 15 games, Herbert with all his “downfield, non-check down” throws finished with 4300 yards and 31 TDs.

And Dak in 16 games— with all his “patient checkdown” throws— finished with over 5500 yards and 36 TDs— somehow, in your mind, equates to Herbert being a “legit gunslinger” and Dak as a— what were words? A “take-what-the defense-gives” QB?

Either you are a troll, you hate Dak, or you are ignorant.

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Hawkeye19 said:
Laughable.

So in 15 games, Herbert with all his “downfield, non-check down” throws finished with 4300 yards and 31 TDs.

And Dak in 16 games— with all his “patient checkdown” throws— finished with over 5500 yards and 36 TDs— somehow, in your mind, equates to Herbert being a “legit gunslinger” and Dak as a— what were words? A “take-what-the defense-gives” QB?

Either you are a troll, you hate Dak, or you are ignorant.

Do you understand those are all time records for rookie quarterbacks?

I am not a troll, and certainly not ignorant. It is not me who is insulting Dak Prescott. For you to need to compare him in his 7th year to rookies is a very peculiar motive. I think Dak is much better today than Herbert. But when Dak was a rookie, they were extraordinarily different players. Why is he not compared to his contemporaries? Are you going to chastise people for not saying he’s better than Zach Wilson next?

CATCH17 · Sep 18, 2021

Herbert has more talent and the talent that’s why.

Flamma · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
At 4300 yards, 31 TDs and 10 INTs, Justin Herbert’s rookie season is already the greatest statistic season a Charger has ever had.

Couple that with the fact that it wasn’t even a full year (Tyrod Taylor opened as their starter), and it would be a bit of a disappointment if he didn’t finish 2021 entrenched as a top 10 QB in the NFL.

That’s my Dak microscope on Justin Herbert. Week 2 opponent is a legit gunslinger.

Dan Fouts 4802 yards with 33 TDs and 17 picks was a better year IMO. And that was 1981.

OldJarhead · Sep 18, 2021

Doomsday101 said:
First let me say I think Justin Herbert is a good young QB who should continue to learn and develop yet if you put him under the same microscope as Dak then it amazes me how Dak critics can be so high on Justin and acting like he is the 2nd coming of Tom Brady.

Fact is Herbert has never beaten a winning team his wins have been against the Jags, Jets, falcons, raiders, broncos and yes week 17 last year vs KC who did not play Mahomes or most of the starters and now he beat the Washington football team. Yet we are supposed to act as if Justin is some unbeatable QB? looks to be he has been beat many times himself and in Dallas would likely be mocked and attacked constantly

Cowboys did have their struggle on defense this past game vs Tampa and Brady a team who avg 30 points a game last season and won the SB to boot. Justin is not Brady and LA Chargers are not Tampa. Cowboys have a good chance of winning this game.

Look, is he the leader that Dak is? No, not yet. Is he the athlete? Probably not. However, he makes passes that Dak cannot, he puts the ball in places that Dak has never been able to and will NEVER be able to.
That fact is something that Dak's OC (Kelvin the Kid) takes into consideration every game when putting a game plan into place.

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Flamma said:
Dan Fouts 4802 yards with 33 TDs and 17 picks was a better year IMO. And that was 1981.

Herbert also had 5 rushing TDs bringing his total to 36, threw 7 fewer interceptions, and completed 7% more passes (66.6% to Fouts’ 59%). Herbert also didn’t even play 16 games. I think his was more impressive

Flamma · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
Herbert also had 5 rushing TDs bringing his total to 36, threw 7 fewer interceptions, and completed 7% more passes (66.6% to Fouts’ 59%). Herbert also didn’t even play 16 games. I think his was more impressive

Dan Fouts fat butt didn't get any rushing TDs. But he played in 1981 when some defenses were crazy good. Still passed for 4800 yards. The next best wasn't even 4000. In today's game every defense is either bad, average, or slightly above average. No QB ever has to face an elite defense. The 7 extra picks really doesn't matter as they got to the AFC Championship that year. What Herbert did got them nowhere. It's a different type of game today where you can put up big numbers that mean nothing.

Hawkeye19 · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
Do you understand those are all time records for rookie quarterbacks?

I am not a troll, and certainly not ignorant. It is not me who is insulting Dak Prescott. For you to need to compare him in his 7th year to rookies is a very peculiar motive. I think Dak is much better today than Herbert. But when Dak was a rookie, they were extraordinarily different players. Why is he not compared to his contemporaries? Are you going to chastise people for not saying he’s better than Zach Wilson next?

Chastise? No— don’t be sensitive lol

Challenge? Hell yeah. Whatever standard you use to judge other QBs— apply to Dak, and vice versa. When fans post stats for one QB then “qualifiers” to minimize those same stats when it comes to Dak— sure, I’ll call out the contradictions and hypocrisy.

Back to my question— if Herbert is a “gunslinger”— defining him by the stats you chose to justify your label— how do you then label Dak?

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Hawkeye19 said:
Chastise? No— don’t be sensitive lol

Challenge? Hell yeah. Whatever standard you use to judge other QBs— apply to Dak, and vice versa. When fans post stats for one QB then “qualifiers” to minimize those same stats when it comes to Dak— sure, I’ll call out the contradictions and hypocrisy.

Back to my question— if Herbert is a “gunslinger”— defining him by the stats you chose to justify your label— how do you then label Dak?

Dak is a normal QB. Gunslinger is an outlier QB.

What qualifier stats did I use to minimize Dak? I never even brought up Dak, you did. Show me where I minimized Dak in this thread not even about Dak.

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Flamma said:
Dan Fouts fat butt didn't get any rushing TDs. But he played in 1981 when some defenses were crazy good. Still passed for 4800 yards. The next best wasn't even 4000. In today's game every defense is either bad, average, or slightly above average. No QB ever has to face an elite defense. The 7 extra picks really doesn't matter as they got to the AFC Championship that year. What Herbert did got them nowhere. It's a different type of game today where you can put up big numbers that mean nothing.

The statlines are definitely products of their time, but no one is disputing the legitimacy of Peyton Manning’s 55 TD season because Marino’s 48 in ‘83 is more impressive for its time. It’s a superior stat line, and it’s an indirect result of era. Baseball translates through eras, Football not as much.

So you can say you’re more impressed with Fouts throwing more turnovers, completing fewer passes in more games than Herbert, but Herbert’s is still the best stat line a Charger has ever produced.

CalPolyTechnique · Sep 18, 2021

Imagine how much better and productive human beings some of y’all would be if you applied the same energy you do trying to defend Dak’s honor to something actually meaningful?

Hawkeye19 · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
Dak is a normal QB. Gunslinger is an outlier QB.

What qualifier stats did I use to minimize Dak? I never even brought up Dak, you did. Show me where I minimized Dak in this thread not even about Dak.

You just minimized Dak by calling him a “normal QB” lol… Let me make this simple (using your “logic”):

QB A: 15 games, 4300 yds, 31 TDs = “Gunslinger”
QB 2: 16 games, 5500 + yds, 36 TDs= “Normal”

This is not about the respect you are giving Herbert. It’s about the clear lack of respect you are willing to give Dak.

CowboyFrog · Sep 18, 2021

JayFord said:
the whole QBs that dont have a winning record against winning teams thing was made soecificially for Cowboys QBs because if Dak were on any other team hed be considered top 5 no question

it was the same with Romo

its 90% defense that craps the bed against good teams

i saw Romo put up 48 points in a game and the defense give up 51

ive seen countless timee romo or dak lead a late score just for the defense to give it right back

If they can not see this then they do not know what they are watching when a football game is on....We have been, and i need stronger words for this, EXTREMELY LUCKY WITH THE LAST 2 QB'S we have had...like WON THE LOTTERY LUCKY...most teams see one of those in 50 years we have back to back fall in our laps against the odds QB's come here....and can not seem to put a HC or whatever the damm problem has been around them.

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Hawkeye19 said:
You just minimized Dak by calling him a “normal QB” lol… Let me make this simple (using your “logic”):

QB A: 15 games, 4300 yds, 31 TDs = “Gunslinger”
QB 2: 16 games, 5500 + yds, 36 TDs= “Normal”

This is not about the respect you are giving Herbert. It’s about the clear lack of respect you are willing to give Dak.

I think you’re confused. I’ve done nothing but praise Dak on this thread, said he was better than Herbert, and he is definitely not a gunslinger.

Do you believe Dak is a gunslinger QB, is that the point you’re making?

In my opinion, Dak does not throw aggressive, risky passes downfield, he is smart with the ball, as normal QBs should be. Now you could say Herbert only did it because he was a rookie and he may grow out of it, but not a lot of gunslingers do.

Do you often watch Dak play QB and think, “I wish he’d stop throwing so many risky downfield passes, why can’t he play like a normal QB?”

Ive never once thought that. So what is your point with this? Dak is not a gunslinger, no one would ever call Dak a gunslinger… and you’re “challenging” me for not calling him a gunslinger?

Did you mean to quote a different poster? Is this is all a giant mistake? I like Dak Prescott, and I never once said he is better or played better than Dak; you keep gaslighting that I did. Maybe I could help you find the poster in this thread you meant to respond to?

Flamma · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
The statlines are definitely products of their time, but no one is disputing the legitimacy of Peyton Manning’s 55 TD season because Marino’s 48 in ‘83 is more impressive for its time. It’s a superior stat line, and it’s an indirect result of era. Baseball translates through eras, Football not as much.

So you can say you’re more impressed with Fouts throwing more turnovers, completing fewer passes in more games than Herbert, but Herbert’s is still the best stat line a Charger has ever produced.

You mean 1984 and I dispute it. And I've disputed it with many people. Peyton racked up stats against all average defenses. He was good at it. The second they faced a good defense they got crushed. At least Marino put up 16 points. Marino ran into good defenses that held his stat line in check. Still passed for 48 TDs and over 5000 yards. Peyton met no such defenses. Peyton had no predators so to speak.

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Flamma said:
You mean 1984 and I dispute it. And I've disputed it with many people. Peyton racked up stats against all average defenses. He was good at it. The second they faced a good defense they got crushed. At least Marino put up 16 points. Marino ran into good defenses that held his stat line in check. Still passed for 48 TDs and over 5000 yards. Peyton met no such defenses. Peyton had no predators so to speak.

Then we are simply of differing opinions

Hawkeye19 · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
I think you’re confused. I’ve done nothing but praise Dak on this thread, said he was better than Herbert, and he is definitely not a gunslinger.

Do you believe Dak is a gunslinger QB, is that the point you’re making?

In my opinion, Dak does not throw aggressive, risky passes downfield, he is smart with the ball, as normal QBs should be. Now you could say Herbert only did it because he was a rookie and he may grow out of it, but not a lot of gunslingers do.

Do you often watch Dak play QB and think, “I wish he’d stop throwing so many risky downfield passes, why can’t he play like a normal QB?”

Ive never once thought that. So what is your point with this? Dak is not a gunslinger, no one would ever call Dak a gunslinger… and you’re “challenging” me for not calling him a gunslinger?

Did you mean to quote a different poster? Is this is all a giant mistake? I like Dak Prescott, and I never once said he is better or played better than Dak; you keep gaslighting that I did. Maybe I could help you find the poster in this thread you meant to respond to?

Will just leave this here— the whole “Dak doesn’t push the ball downfield” myth is just that. A myth

https://www.___GET_REAL_URL___/s/ww...2021/2/11/22274403/throwing-deep-accuracy-nfl

Aerolithe_Lion · Sep 18, 2021

Hawkeye19 said:
Will just leave this here— the whole “Dak doesn’t push the ball downfield” myth is just that. A myth

https://www.___GET_REAL_URL___/s/ww...2021/2/11/22274403/throwing-deep-accuracy-nfl

I 100% agree it’s a myth and I’ve never once in my entire time on this board have never said he didn’t do that.

Still no idea why you got upset with me talking about Justin Herbert in a Justin Herbert thread… maybe we could start an “I love Dak Prescott” thread instead of derailing this one?

Flamma · Sep 18, 2021

Aerolithe_Lion said:
Then we are simply of differing opinions

Yes. It's really not proper to bring up what I said, so you won't see too many analysts do it. You can only play the competition in front of you. Was Babe Ruth's 60 home runs just outside the dead ball era in 1927 better than Maris with 61? I think so. But is it proper to bring that up? Probably not.

Put Justin Herbert under the same microscope you put Dak under

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