You can't play Nickel from a 3-4

HoplessCowboysFan36 · Sep 22, 2021

Ekspozed said:
You'd think 3 4 would be more stout against the pass then run

Where as 4 3 the opposite

If you have the right nose tackle the 3-4 works great against the run. We do not.

TheMarathonContinues · Sep 22, 2021

DakPresgoat said:
To be honest. I want Hurts standing in the pocket and throwing. I don’t want him on the edges running around and making plays.

for this upcoming game I would like to see Parsons spy hurts a lot.

As would I…..if they want to air it out then be my guest. But running with Hurts and Sanders? I don’t want to see that.

CowboyFrog · Sep 22, 2021

rocyaice said:
As would I…..if they want to air it out then be my guest. But running with Hurts and Sanders? I don’t want to see that.

My other worry is..I dont think Diggs can stay with Reagor and Co. step for step...This will the first pure speed guys he has seen this year. I hope Quinn has something up his sleeve for this. If Hurtz is able to extend plays we might get burnt

TheMarathonContinues · Sep 22, 2021

CowboyFrog said:
My other worry is..I dont think Diggs can stay with Reagor and Co. step for step...This will the first pure speed guys he has seen this year. I hope Quinn has something up his sleeve for this. If Hurtz is able to extend plays we might get burnt

Is Reagor a speed guy though? I know Watkins is their speed guy I don’t know about Reagor.

speedkilz88 · Sep 22, 2021

Antonio Brown despite his 40 time is a speed guy. One of the best.

CowboyFrog · Sep 22, 2021

rocyaice said:
Is Reagor a speed guy though? I know Watkins is their speed guy I don’t know about Reagor.

He is fast

CowboyFrog · Sep 22, 2021

Can not let Hurtz break the pocket like we did Herbert...

jterrell · Sep 22, 2021

xwalker said:
The 3-4 is a run defense.

Defenses in the modern era play about 70% or more snaps in Nickel.

If a team is in a 3-4 alignment, then they are expecting run.

When a 3-4 team goes from 3-4 to Nickel, they pull the 320+ NT off the field.
- They then bring in the ~200 pound Nickel CB.

Quinn often has the DEs in Nickel standing up.

The stand-up DEs job in Quinn's defense has similarities to a 3-4 OLB.

Summary: If Parsons played 3-4 OLB then he still has to either play DE or off-ball LB on 70%+ of snaps.

The 3-4 is easy enough to flip to 3-3-5
3 bigger DL with less edge rusher types is what most colleges use now.
Then you have one lesser version of Micah Parsons you can rush as your 4th guy or drop as desired.

Dallas did some stuff where they actually ran 3-2-6.
With a heavy 3 Safety lineup.

Macnalty · Sep 22, 2021

Risen Star said:
And now for reality.

The 3-4 was invented because of the lack of DE's capable of being stout enough to play as a down lineman while also being athletic enough to get to the QB. The scheme exists to more easily find players who can rush off the edge.

Truth

Rockport · Sep 22, 2021

xwalker said:
The 3-4 is a run defense.

Defenses in the modern era play about 70% or more snaps in Nickel.

If a team is in a 3-4 alignment, then they are expecting run.

When a 3-4 team goes from 3-4 to Nickel, they pull the 320+ NT off the field.
- They then bring in the ~200 pound Nickel CB.

Quinn often has the DEs in Nickel standing up.

The stand-up DEs job in Quinn's defense has similarities to a 3-4 OLB.

Summary: If Parsons played 3-4 OLB then he still has to either play DE or off-ball LB on 70%+ of snaps.

I always heard that the 3-4 was susceptible to the run. I admit, I have no idea.

Rockport · Sep 22, 2021

Proof said:
as much football as i watch, as much as i feel like i understand, i'm still a doofus when it comes to alignments and schemes.

At least you admit it so kudos. I’m on the same boat.

Proof · Sep 22, 2021

Rockport said:
At least you admit it so kudos. I’m on the same boat.

yeah, i really appreciate those posters who break the stuff down. i still don’t understand why kick returners and punt returners require different skill sets though :lmao:

doomsday9084 · Sep 22, 2021

What prevents Dallas from playing a 3-4 and a 4-2 nickel? The Cowboys (like every team) routinely rotate linemen in and out.

Next question: What happened to the 4-3 "under" that Quinn was supposed to bring where the one outside backer is really an edge rusher?

Floatyworm · Sep 22, 2021

Risen Star said:
And now for reality.

The 3-4 was invented because of the lack of DE's capable of being stout enough to play as a down lineman while also being athletic enough to get to the QB. The scheme exists to more easily find players who can rush off the edge.

When X-Walker starts to inform fans...how the game is played....get your popcorn. You just never know what you are going to see. :popcorn:

xwalker · Oct 3, 2021

Ekspozed said:
You'd think 3 4 would be more stout against the pass then run

Where as 4 3 the opposite

No, 3-4 is a stronger run defense alignment.

To go from the 4-2-5 Nickel:
3-4: Replace Nickel CB with 320+ NT.

4:3: Replace Nickel CB with 240ish pound LB.

coult44 · Oct 3, 2021

Parsons knows there’s a reason Edge guys make soooo much more bank than MLBs do.

xwalker · Oct 3, 2021

CowboysFaninHouston said:
wait, I thought 4-3 was a run defense and 3-4 was a pass rushing, pass defense....one of the main reasons 3-4 came to be was the difficulty in finding a pass rushing 4-3 DE, instead they took these smallish DEs or LBs and made them pass rushers, because they were fast and they didn't have to line up with hands down on the ground against LTs and RTs. plus it was much easier to disguise the pass rush with a 3-4 from same look. generally its a smaller front 7 (despite the NT), since you take a DL man and replace him with a LB, so more suspect to runs if the guards can get to the second level.

now, the nickle requires a different look and I have seen the 3-3-5 look, with a saftey in the box that can drop or cover. in essence swapping a LB for a saftey.

but you may have a point, I also see a lot of 4-2-5 look, which may be better against stopping a potential run but you still have two DEs rushing primarily.

today's defenses are mostly hybrid now anyway.

Ware & Spencer played 3-4 OLB but played DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel.
- Moving them from DE to LB on run downs made them big LBs instead of lightweight DEs.
- i.e. The same players become better run defenders just by using a different formation.
- When they moved to DE in the 4-2-5 Nickel, that also meant an interior DT came off the field and the Nickel CB came into the game.

When Wade Phillips went to the Rams and installed his 3-4, it moved Aaron Donald (6-1, 290) from DT to DE on run downs.
- That made it easier for Donald to play run defense.
- At 290 he is smallish at DT but he is a big compared to the average for DEs.
- He moves back to DT in the 4-2-5 Nickel.

In Marinelli's 4-3 the LDE was base end and played a 5tech or 6tech alignment.
- The RDE played a 7tech alignment.
- i.e. They were basically different positions.
- The RDE position was designed such that it could be played by a player like Robert Quinn (6-4, 260 with the Cowboys, now listed at 6-4, 245 with the Bears).

Summary: NFL defenses in the modern era play over 70% of snaps in Nickel (4-2-5).

xwalker · Oct 3, 2021

Risen Star said:
And now for reality.

The 3-4 was invented because of the lack of DE's capable of being stout enough to play as a down lineman while also being athletic enough to get to the QB. The scheme exists to more easily find players who can rush off the edge.

Playing in a 3-4 made them better run defenders. It didn't make those players better pass rushers than they would have been in 4-3.

In Nickel, 3-4 teams play a 4-man line (4-2-5 Nickel) and those same 3-4 OLBs play DE in Nickel.

Summary: The 3-4 improved run defense by formation instead of by drafting bigger edge players.

T-RO · Oct 3, 2021

The problem with threads like that is that you have fans who know just enough to be dangerous...who are partially correct...trying to teach lectures that they aren't qualified to teach.

There is way too much inaccuracy and opinion here.

Based on 2019 data here is the NFL breakdown of defenses played:
Nickel, 60.5%
Base, 25.0%
Dime(+) 13.3%
Goal line, 0.8%
Big, 0.3%

Sometimes teams even use seven DBs! 73.8% of the time 2019 NFL teams were not in a 4-3 or 3-4, but they might opt for more D-line or more LB for their non-secondary personnel.

XWalker's opinions about whether 4-3 or 3-4 is a stronger run defense are wholly his opinions.

Source
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2020/defensive-personnel-analysis-2019

Risen Star · Oct 3, 2021

xwalker said:
Playing in a 3-4 made them better run defenders. It didn't make those players better pass rushers than they would have been in 4-3.

In Nickel, 3-4 teams play a 4-man line (4-2-5 Nickel) and those same 3-4 OLBs play DE in Nickel.

Summary: The 3-4 improved run defense by formation instead of by drafting bigger edge players.

You don't have the slightest clue of what you're talking about.

You can't play Nickel from a 3-4

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Penguinite

Well-Known Member

AmberBeer

AmberBeer

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Labeled One

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Likes Collector