3 QB Categories

fivetwos said:

I appreciate you understanding that paragraphs can be your friend lol.

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DonaldM said:

If garrapolo wins I guess we can rethink this ...I doubt he will. Pretty sure Rams can outscore them. Yes, guaranteed.

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Bigdog said:

So we have tier 2 qb who is being paid like a tier 1 qb and I like Dak but I have to call it like I see it. Hopefully that will change though.

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Aerolithe_Lion said:

People throw around the word elite way too much. There are not 6-7 elite QBs in the nfl right now

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CowboysFaninHouston said:

perhaps not as strong. the notion that any QB puts the team on their back is totally false....every QB needs a supporting cast, its what you do with the cast once you have it. tampa is case and point, Winston got the team to 7-9. same cast pretty much and they won a superbowl with Brady....

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817Gill said:

Many fans like to lump QB’s into two tiers, elite or not good enough, when in reality there’s three.

(Not going to list all the individuals, just going to give rough numbers on how many fit in each)

Tier 1-Elite/Future HOFer: 6-7 QB’s

Tier 2-Varying levels of good: 9-10 QB’s

Tier 3- Average to below average: 14-15 QB’s

Now when it comes to building a SB team, most people think having a tier 1 guy is the only way to do it. Although it definitely makes it easier, there are other ways to build SB contenders. Keep in mind every QB no matter what tier he falls in needs a certain level of roster and coaching help, while those in tier 1 need less help and those in tier 3 need the most help.

In terms of the Cowboys, we have a tier two guy. Whether you think he’s at the tip top of tier 2 or somewhere in the middle, the vast majority of us know that Dak is not elite but is not below average either. Guys like Dak, Carr, Wentz, Tannehill, Cousins, and Jimmy G have moments and games where they can perform at an elite level; but a lack of high end consistency relegates them to a tier 2 role.

So the question becomes, in the position we are in now, how do we move forward to building the best team possible? Again, although a tier 1 guy solves a lot of issues, tier 2 guys can and have made and won SB’s albeit usually with more help.

There are only 6-7 elite QB’s in the world, if your only plan to build a winner is to find one of those good luck as the odds are not in your favor. You need either a top 10ish pick or an extreme stroke of luck. Put that out of your minds now, we will not be bad enough to pick that high without major injury and you can’t plan for luck. Trading up would be costly and would require we pick the right guy, which the odds are extremely low that we do.

So how do we build a contender with a tier 2 guy? You follow the niners blueprint. Run the ball at a high level, allow your QB to thrive in play action and in situations where the defenses must show their hand. Defined reads, ability to scheme guys open, and allowing the QB to complement the offense as opposed to being the center of it. Add in a strong defense and coaching and you’ve got yourself a tough team that can win and win big.

Trying to change the QB situation is extremely risky, as odds are overwhelmingly low that we can draft or trade for someone in tier 1 with where we draft and salary cap implications around the league. But with the roster we have so far as well as our ability to draft well, pivoting to winning the way tier 2 guys do is the better move.

This defense is not far away from being a top 8ish unit while the offense has plenty of pieces. One more interior D and Olineman, another LB, and one or two more auxiliary pieces like a blocking TE or better FS is what we need to have the roster at the level it needs to be to play the way we need to.

I say all this to set up the focal point of the post, we are not far at all from having the roster necessary to be a true contender. But we must pivot schematically to give us the best chance possible. We can’t build a team in Kansas City’s image, we must build one in San Francisco’s.

And for those who will bring up the salary of our QB, please stop shaking your fist at the sky and complaining about a market that’s out of anyone’s control. QB’s will get paid high amounts from now until the end of time. Unless owners get together and plan to create a salary range for tier 2 QB’s, they will be paid elite money when their time is up next. But as of now, don’t expect to see only 5-6 guys paid high while the rest of the league recycles QB’s until they luck into an elite guy, no franchise is going to do that. After 2-3 years each guy gets overlapped by 3-4 more. Dak’s 3rd highest paid status will be 8th or 9th in a year or two, much more commensurate with his ranking.

If the team focuses on making these schematic changes, this team can be a true contender. Unfortunately, I have zero faith that the two pass happy guys running our offense will see it that way. Regardless, we aren’t too far away, but we must take the right path forward. If we keep scheming and creating the identity of a team with tier 1 QB play we will come up short. Again, you can win with tier 2 play but it must be built correctly and you must know who you are.

Long thread but it sums up how I feel we should move forward and it’s gonna be slow on here for a while so why not take some time and read lol.

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DonaldM said:

If garrapolo wins I guess we can rethink this ...I doubt he will. Pretty sure Rams can outscore them. Yes, guaranteed.

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817Gill said:

Many fans like to lump QB’s into two tiers, elite or not good enough, when in reality there’s three.

(Not going to list all the individuals, just going to give rough numbers on how many fit in each)

Tier 1-Elite/Future HOFer: 6-7 QB’s

Tier 2-Varying levels of good: 9-10 QB’s

Tier 3- Average to below average: 14-15 QB’s

Now when it comes to building a SB team, most people think having a tier 1 guy is the only way to do it. Although it definitely makes it easier, there are other ways to build SB contenders. Keep in mind every QB no matter what tier he falls in needs a certain level of roster and coaching help, while those in tier 1 need less help and those in tier 3 need the most help.

In terms of the Cowboys, we have a tier two guy. Whether you think he’s at the tip top of tier 2 or somewhere in the middle, the vast majority of us know that Dak is not elite but is not below average either. Guys like Dak, Carr, Wentz, Tannehill, Cousins, and Jimmy G have moments and games where they can perform at an elite level; but a lack of high end consistency relegates them to a tier 2 role.

So the question becomes, in the position we are in now, how do we move forward to building the best team possible? Again, although a tier 1 guy solves a lot of issues, tier 2 guys can and have made and won SB’s albeit usually with more help.

There are only 6-7 elite QB’s in the world, if your only plan to build a winner is to find one of those good luck as the odds are not in your favor. You need either a top 10ish pick or an extreme stroke of luck. Put that out of your minds now, we will not be bad enough to pick that high without major injury and you can’t plan for luck. Trading up would be costly and would require we pick the right guy, which the odds are extremely low that we do.

So how do we build a contender with a tier 2 guy? You follow the niners blueprint. Run the ball at a high level, allow your QB to thrive in play action and in situations where the defenses must show their hand. Defined reads, ability to scheme guys open, and allowing the QB to complement the offense as opposed to being the center of it. Add in a strong defense and coaching and you’ve got yourself a tough team that can win and win big.

Trying to change the QB situation is extremely risky, as odds are overwhelmingly low that we can draft or trade for someone in tier 1 with where we draft and salary cap implications around the league. But with the roster we have so far as well as our ability to draft well, pivoting to winning the way tier 2 guys do is the better move.

This defense is not far away from being a top 8ish unit while the offense has plenty of pieces. One more interior D and Olineman, another LB, and one or two more auxiliary pieces like a blocking TE or better FS is what we need to have the roster at the level it needs to be to play the way we need to.

I say all this to set up the focal point of the post, we are not far at all from having the roster necessary to be a true contender. But we must pivot schematically to give us the best chance possible. We can’t build a team in Kansas City’s image, we must build one in San Francisco’s.

And for those who will bring up the salary of our QB, please stop shaking your fist at the sky and complaining about a market that’s out of anyone’s control. QB’s will get paid high amounts from now until the end of time. Unless owners get together and plan to create a salary range for tier 2 QB’s, they will be paid elite money when their time is up next. But as of now, don’t expect to see only 5-6 guys paid high while the rest of the league recycles QB’s until they luck into an elite guy, no franchise is going to do that. After 2-3 years each guy gets overlapped by 3-4 more. Dak’s 3rd highest paid status will be 8th or 9th in a year or two, much more commensurate with his ranking.

If the team focuses on making these schematic changes, this team can be a true contender. Unfortunately, I have zero faith that the two pass happy guys running our offense will see it that way. Regardless, we aren’t too far away, but we must take the right path forward. If we keep scheming and creating the identity of a team with tier 1 QB play we will come up short. Again, you can win with tier 2 play but it must be built correctly and you must know who you are.

Long thread but it sums up how I feel we should move forward and it’s gonna be slow on here for a while so why not take some time and read lol.

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817Gill said:

Rodgers, Brady, Allen, Mahomes, Wilson, Watson (when he returns).

This isn’t even getting to guys who are a year away from cementing it like Herbert and Burrow or cusp guys like Jackson and Murray.

It’s a golden age of QB play. Players these days get thousands more reps than guys of eras past. The resources and money put into grooming these guys makes for more great ones. It’s not something that stays linear from the start of the NFL until now.

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Nexx said:

1. Elite
2. Pro Bowl Caliber
3. Good
4. Average
5. Bus Driver
6. Backup

Dak is somewhere between average and bus driver to me.

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rocyaice said:

I mean they also had Antonio Brown and Gronk….

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fivetwos said:

When a tier 1 guy faces four man pressure things generally get ugly.

SF was doing it to our tier 2 guy.

The OL as a unit was pathetic, although there were two all pros on it.

Something is very, very off and although Jerry seems to be loving status quo, something has to change along the OL.

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817Gill said:

Many fans like to lump QB’s into two tiers, elite or not good enough, when in reality there’s three.

(Not going to list all the individuals, just going to give rough numbers on how many fit in each)

Tier 1-Elite/Future HOFer: 6-7 QB’s

Tier 2-Varying levels of good: 9-10 QB’s

Tier 3- Average to below average: 14-15 QB’s

Now when it comes to building a SB team, most people think having a tier 1 guy is the only way to do it. Although it definitely makes it easier, there are other ways to build SB contenders. Keep in mind every QB no matter what tier he falls in needs a certain level of roster and coaching help, while those in tier 1 need less help and those in tier 3 need the most help.

In terms of the Cowboys, we have a tier two guy. Whether you think he’s at the tip top of tier 2 or somewhere in the middle, the vast majority of us know that Dak is not elite but is not below average either. Guys like Dak, Carr, Wentz, Tannehill, Cousins, and Jimmy G have moments and games where they can perform at an elite level; but a lack of high end consistency relegates them to a tier 2 role.

So the question becomes, in the position we are in now, how do we move forward to building the best team possible? Again, although a tier 1 guy solves a lot of issues, tier 2 guys can and have made and won SB’s albeit usually with more help.

There are only 6-7 elite QB’s in the world, if your only plan to build a winner is to find one of those good luck as the odds are not in your favor. You need either a top 10ish pick or an extreme stroke of luck. Put that out of your minds now, we will not be bad enough to pick that high without major injury and you can’t plan for luck. Trading up would be costly and would require we pick the right guy, which the odds are extremely low that we do.

So how do we build a contender with a tier 2 guy? You follow the niners blueprint. Run the ball at a high level, allow your QB to thrive in play action and in situations where the defenses must show their hand. Defined reads, ability to scheme guys open, and allowing the QB to complement the offense as opposed to being the center of it. Add in a strong defense and coaching and you’ve got yourself a tough team that can win and win big.

Trying to change the QB situation is extremely risky, as odds are overwhelmingly low that we can draft or trade for someone in tier 1 with where we draft and salary cap implications around the league. But with the roster we have so far as well as our ability to draft well, pivoting to winning the way tier 2 guys do is the better move.

This defense is not far away from being a top 8ish unit while the offense has plenty of pieces. One more interior D and Olineman, another LB, and one or two more auxiliary pieces like a blocking TE or better FS is what we need to have the roster at the level it needs to be to play the way we need to.

I say all this to set up the focal point of the post, we are not far at all from having the roster necessary to be a true contender. But we must pivot schematically to give us the best chance possible. We can’t build a team in Kansas City’s image, we must build one in San Francisco’s.

And for those who will bring up the salary of our QB, please stop shaking your fist at the sky and complaining about a market that’s out of anyone’s control. QB’s will get paid high amounts from now until the end of time. Unless owners get together and plan to create a salary range for tier 2 QB’s, they will be paid elite money when their time is up next. But as of now, don’t expect to see only 5-6 guys paid high while the rest of the league recycles QB’s until they luck into an elite guy, no franchise is going to do that. After 2-3 years each guy gets overlapped by 3-4 more. Dak’s 3rd highest paid status will be 8th or 9th in a year or two, much more commensurate with his ranking.

If the team focuses on making these schematic changes, this team can be a true contender. Unfortunately, I have zero faith that the two pass happy guys running our offense will see it that way. Regardless, we aren’t too far away, but we must take the right path forward. If we keep scheming and creating the identity of a team with tier 1 QB play we will come up short. Again, you can win with tier 2 play but it must be built correctly and you must know who you are.

Long thread but it sums up how I feel we should move forward and it’s gonna be slow on here for a while so why not take some time and read lol.

Click to expand...

Aerolithe_Lion said:

What makes Wilson elite? Because he made the Super Bowl 10 years ago with a dominate defense and a run heavy team? Stats alone don’t justify being that level. Josh Allen had a great season, but he’s never done anything either, much less Watson.

None of those 3 QBs are ever seriously in the MVP conversation by the end of the season, 3 QBs combining to average 1.5 total playoff wins over the last 6 seasons… and are all continually overshadowed by the other 3 guys. There is a clear separation between those 2 groups of QBs.

Elite means the top, the best, the guys having HoF seasons year in and year out. Russell Wilson just took a 12 win team and won 7 games with them. Would that EVER happen with Pat Mahomes? He had by his standards a down year, the defense wasn’t as good, and he still won 12 games. Deshaun Watson’s best season was on a 4 win team. Imagine saying that about Aaron Rodgers. Josh Allen, like Wilson, has been buoyed by the NFL’s best defense to start his career. And after 4 seasons has still only managed a single AFCCG appearance. Best D in the world + pro bowl QB is getting bounced too early every year in the playoffs. What happens when that D goes away? What happens when he doesn’t get to go 5-1 every year in the AFC Least? Josh Allen isn’t the same kind of QB as the first 3 guys. He has 2 total 4th Quarter comebacks over the last 2 years, both in 2020. If you’re beating him toward the end of the game, there’s not a lot he can do about it. Brady Mahomes Rodgers in that span have 14, you know no lead is safe.

They’re great QBs, definitely a tier above Dak… but not elite.

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Flamma said:

Fantastic post, and you are absolutely correct. But what have the Cowboys been trying since Tony Romo, and now with Dak? To be more like the Chiefs instead of the 49ers.

I considered Romo top end of tier 2. I got Dak a bit below that, but still tier 2. Now look at 2014 and 2016. We had success and we didn't even have a good defense in those years. But the run game was wicked.

Dallas kind of lucked into a pretty good defense. Let's see how Jerry pursues this. Build on the run game and D, or do what he's been doing for the past 15 years.

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