Why the "Dak is elite" narrative is so flawed

Calvin2Tony2Emmitt2Julius · Feb 5, 2022

None of us need to look at stats to determine whether or not we're watching a good, very good, or great player. Romo never won crap, but I didn't sit there and think, man, this quarterback is holding us back. Dak is what he is, a slightly above average player. One could say he is a little better than that, ok, but I don't see from him what I saw from Joe Montana, Peyton Manning, or Dan Marino. Regardless of SBs.

Ok thats cool. But It is SUBJECTIVE!!! YOUR OPINION!!!

In my humble opinion Joe Montana was in a class by himself. He never had a bad game. Peyton wet the bed countless times and Marino just couldn't get her done. SIKE ! But that's what opinions are SUBJECTIVE. I just happen to like Joe Montana.

But that's what opinions are SUBJECTIVE Subject to or own biases and perspectives. No one is more true than the other

817Gill · Feb 5, 2022

movaughn88 said:
That's a fair assessment. I'm more in the 6-10 range but can't holler all over anyone in the 8-12 grouping.

Here's the thing though...let's just put him at #9 for giggles. Brady retired so next year he's #8.

There is a vocal minority on this board that want to SEND THE 8TH BEST QB IN THE NFL into the wastebin! Cut. Gone. Just reroll a 5-10% chance of drafting one who might be better. Madness. Or trade massive draft capital for someone like Wilson who is only marginally better.

And before anyone squawks about his contract. Every QB in the top 10 from here on out will get paid more than Dak.

Exactly, people don’t understand the QB landscape in relation to the chances you get an elite QB.

mattjames2010 · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
Dak broke some franchise records in 2021. I'm not here to deny that. What I will deny, though, is the significance and relevance of those records.

QB stats in 2021 are very disproportionately inflated, even compared to ~15 years ago. Take a look at this:

In the 2005-2006 season

11 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. One threw for 30+TDs (C. Palmer).

Not a single QB threw for over 4,500 yards. Only two QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

In the 2006-2007 season

10 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. One threw for 30+TDs (P. Manning).

Not a single QB threw for over 4,500 yards. Only two QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

"Greatness" is relative to the the era of NFL that a QB plays. Style of play and pass-happy rules in 2021 makes the NFL a drastically different league than it was even 15 years ago.

In the 2021-2022 season

19 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. 9 threw for 30+TDs.

6 QBs threw for over 4,500 yards. 10 QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

And for those who will invariably try to "get me" by pointing out the 17 game schedule this year, more QBs threw for 30+ TDs in 2020 than 2021 and more QBs threw for over 4,000 yards in 2020 than 2021.

If he were teleported to 2005 and became the Cowboys starting QB, Dak would throw for 19 TDs and ~3,400 yards. That's just the reality. He'd be the equivalent of Kerry Collins or Gus Frerotte. A $40 million Gus Frerotte LOL!

People need to stop conflating gaudy passing stats to greatness. Greatness is much more nuanced than the # of passing TDs a guy has. Great players have "it" when the pressure is on. Dak doesn't.

Watch this video.. it summarizes what I'm saying very well

Puts into perspective how amazing that Marino 1984 season was.

Also, I've explained this to a few posters on here over a week ago. QBs are playing football on easy mode.

mattjames2010 · Feb 5, 2022

MountaineerCowboy said:
Nothing you just said changes the fact that Dak and Romo are both losers.

This isn't golf, dude.

Can you confidently say Aikman would have won with our recent teams? This is a guy who once he lost 1 or two all-pro players his play drastically dropped off after the 95 season. He needed a ton of help to win Super Bowls, help that neither Romo or Dak will ever have. So yeah, Aikman is a winner because he was on a team full of HOF and all-pros.

JoeyBoy718 · Feb 5, 2022

I think you need to compare stats relative to their contemporaries. Peyton was #1 by far in stats almost every year of his career. There are a lot of guys who put up similar stats these days. How does Dak compare to other QBs today, not to Cowboys QBs 20 years ago?

ChronicCowboy · Feb 5, 2022

Yeah QB’s are being financially rewarded for the style of football that’s being played right now. Running backs used to be the most important players on offense….now they’re spare parts.

mattjames2010 · Feb 5, 2022

DFWJC said:
Dak has played 5 seasons where he started the majority of the games

In Passer Rating (just one measurement, but we'll use that)

0 seasons #1
2 of 5 seasons top 5
2 of 5 seasons below top 10, so
3 of 5 seasons in top 10
1 of 5 seasons out of top 15
0 seasons out of top 20

Do with it what you wish. I think the average is in the 9-11 range

...I will toss it out because "passer rating" is outdated.

buybuydandavis · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
People need to stop conflating gaudy passing stats to greatness. Greatness is much more nuanced than the # of passing TDs a guy has. Great players have "it" when the pressure is on. Dak doesn't.

Some players could just flip a switch and turn it on when the game was on the line. See it in basketball a lot. Football is more of a team game. It's harder to see, but some QBs had enough to make their magic felt in crunch time.

And Dak hasn't been one of those guys. If anything, he seems to wilt under pressure. Instead of greatness surfacing, his flaws resurface.

DFWJC · Feb 5, 2022

mattjames2010 said:
...I will toss it out because "passer rating" is outdated.

of course you will.

Maybe ESPNs made up QBR then?

11th this season

Ranched · Feb 5, 2022

MountaineerCowboy said:
What Romo did 15 years ago is much more impressive than what Dak did this year.

And I believe both guys are losers.

So you're comparing Romo's entire tenure to one season of Dak's?!

And by calling them both loser's, tells us you didn't watch any of the other 8 quarterback's after Akiman, you know, the ones that never won a playoff. Go root for another team. Dak isn't going anywhere, thank goodness!

Calvin2Tony2Emmitt2Julius said:
None of us need to look at stats to determine whether or not we're watching a good, very good, or great player. Romo never won crap,

Oh please. He was the best undrafted quarterback to ever play. You'll see him in the hall as well. Romo was wasted by Garrett & that horrific Oline. Romo's not the one who dropped the ball in the endzone to advance to the NFC championship game. And Romo tossed a perfect pass to Dez. If not for Romo carrying the team, Garrett would have never won any division titles let alone coach of the year.

Stop pumping ur chest behind a keyboard by trying to fit in with the rest of the Romo haters because obviously, you don't know squat! Hell, Wodgers/Brady you name them couldn't do anything with Garrett either if given the chance.

Ridiculous, moving on ---------->

buybuydandavis · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
As for your other question, that’s a tough one. The modern NFL is custom made for gaudy stats, so I don’t think greatness can be defined solely by stats. Like I said in a previous post, that intangible “it” factor plays a huge part in what I look for to consider someone great or elite.

Greatness is production against quality when seasons are on the line. In the big games. Some guys get in The Zone under the bright lights. Most are deer in the headlights.

Blake · Feb 5, 2022

BoyzBlaster said:
The idea of Dak being anything remotely near 'great' is waaaaay in the rear view mirror for 99% of fans. The few that are left holding on to that fantasy are the hard cores and they are resigned to going down with the ship.

The few. The proud. The Dak Lovers.

buybuydandavis · Feb 5, 2022

daboyzruleperiod said:
So you're comparing Romo's entire tenure to one season of Dak's?!
...
He was the best undrafted quarterback to ever play. You'll see him in the hall as well.

Warner and Moon.
https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/galle...-nfl-tony-romo-kurt-warner-warren-moon-041717

Romo isn't making the HOF and shouldn't. I've always been a Romo fanboy, and still am. But he just doesn't rank up there.

Romo was Almost Antonio. He just fell short, and often by his own hand. Maybe if he got a chance in 2016, he could have rewritten it. Certainly played well enough in 2014 to be a HOF QB. But he didn't get the chance to show he could still play after his collarbone injuries. Sad.

Almost Antonio.

Calvin2Tony2Emmitt2Julius · Feb 5, 2022

Daboyzruleperiod Don't attribute that Quote to me I was copying and pasting what another poster said and responding

BobSacamano · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
Dak broke some franchise records in 2021. I'm not here to deny that. What I will deny, though, is the significance and relevance of those records.

QB stats in 2021 are very disproportionately inflated, even compared to ~15 years ago. Take a look at this:

In the 2005-2006 season

11 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. One threw for 30+TDs (C. Palmer).

Not a single QB threw for over 4,500 yards. Only two QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

In the 2006-2007 season

10 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. One threw for 30+TDs (P. Manning).

Not a single QB threw for over 4,500 yards. Only two QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

"Greatness" is relative to the the era of NFL that a QB plays. Style of play and pass-happy rules in 2021 makes the NFL a drastically different league than it was even 15 years ago.

In the 2021-2022 season

19 QBs passed for more than 20 TDs. 9 threw for 30+TDs.

6 QBs threw for over 4,500 yards. 10 QBs threw for over 4,000 yards.

And for those who will invariably try to "get me" by pointing out the 17 game schedule this year, more QBs threw for 30+ TDs in 2020 than 2021 and more QBs threw for over 4,000 yards in 2020 than 2021.

If he were teleported to 2005 and became the Cowboys starting QB, Dak would throw for 19 TDs and ~3,400 yards. That's just the reality. He'd be the equivalent of Kerry Collins or Gus Frerotte. A $40 million Gus Frerotte LOL!

People need to stop conflating gaudy passing stats to greatness. Greatness is much more nuanced than the # of passing TDs a guy has. Great players have "it" when the pressure is on. Dak doesn't.

Watch this video.. it summarizes what I'm saying very well

Cool story, bro

MountaineerCowboy · Feb 5, 2022

mattjames2010 said:
This isn't golf, dude.

Can you confidently say Aikman would have won with our recent teams? This is a guy who once he lost 1 or two all-pro players his play drastically dropped off after the 95 season. He needed a ton of help to win Super Bowls, help that neither Romo or Dak will ever have. So yeah, Aikman is a winner because he was on a team full of HOF and all-pros.

I'm not in the business of throwing champions under the bus to prop up losers like Dak and Romo.

BobSacamano · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
Appreciate it brother.

I know this post will garner some hate, but I truly don’t dislike Dak as a player or a person.

I just wish he was more consistent and I wish a lot of people here would recognize some of his deficiencies instead of acting like he’s the best QB ever haha

No one acts like that. Just like no one stabbed Germany in the back in 1918.

jwooten15 · Feb 5, 2022

Ranching said:
The same goes for all the other modern QBs.....so, what's the issue?

You know exactly what I’m saying, so don’t ask rhetorical questions. The only reason you’re asking me this is because you dislike what I’m saying. Sorry that your buddy Dak is average.

BobSacamano · Feb 5, 2022

jwooten15 said:
That’s why they call an NFL season a marathon and not a sprint, my brother! Ryan Fitzpatrick and Derek Carr have been MVP candidates in years past during the first 4-6 weeks of the season

Your hyperbole knows no bounds realist/progressive QB evaluator guy.

jwooten15 · Feb 5, 2022

Calvin2Tony2Emmitt2Julius said:
Now put away the lube

dang, what a tease. I was just starting to get excited

Why the "Dak is elite" narrative is so flawed

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