CFZ The flaw with the Jones and their roster building

CowboyoWales

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im not contradicting myself.... I think my dripping sarcasm is getting by you.

We lost the Niner game 23-17... we scored SEVENTEEN points. We allowed 23, 7 of which you can credit to Dak throwing that horrible interception to an open receiver and throwing the ball on the wrong side of his body and going right into the arms of a waiting defensive back. So I dont care if Samuel avg 23 yards per carry, the defense allowed 17 pts, our weak offense could only score 17 pts.

Yep,@rocyaice the only stat that matters is the score.... if you cant score 24pts in a play-off game you're probably going home. We had the ball twice in the last 3 minutes to win the game.

The Jimmie Ward quote....says it all....“We went in there and did what we needed to do: Stop the run and force them to be one-dimensional. See if Prescott could win the game for them,”
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Yep,@rocyaice the only stat that matters is the score.... if you cant score 24pts in a play-off game you're probably going home. We had the ball twice in the last 3 minutes to win the game.

The Jimmie Ward quote....says it all....“We went in there and did what we needed to do: Stop the run and force them to be one-dimensional. See if Prescott could win the game for them,”
That’s crap though. If you saw that game you saw no signs of us being able to stop them. If we somehow would’ve scored 40 points they would’ve scored 42.
 

fivetwos

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You may not "care" how many yards Samuel averaged but if you watched the game the 49ers played conservative when they got the lead. The minute they decided to pass Jimmy G threw a pick. You are giving the defense far too much credit.
That game wasn't anywhere near as close as the scoreboard showed. Same with Arizona.

They very much struggled offensively and the "tells" were probably there well before SF....they were just the first to say it publicly.

This happens over and over with this organization, and not only is it somehow not a fireable offense, but nothing seems to ever be done about it.

Everyone worries about this and that with roster upgrades, meanwhile we are telling our opponent which play we are running beforehand.

THATS the damn problem.

Until we cease to be outcoached when it matters, what's the difference who we sign or don't sign to play?
 

DuncanIso

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I don't think they look at player personnel, at least when it comes to FA, through the prism of position needs or overall team needs. They just look at players. They just want to grab bodies, especially their own, in FA.

Randy Gregory is a good DE. He's not a great DE. He was offered $70 million which is a pretty large contract for a DE. That kind of contract would give you the impression that the Cowboys realize they have a big need at DE opposite Lawrence. And yet, when Gregory bolts, they make no moves to land an equally talented or better DE. That $70 million "budgeted" for DE vaporizes. Because it wasn't budgeted for a high level DE. It was just budgeted for Gregory. They signed a couple of cheapies and move onto the draft. They didn't slot $70 million to get better (or at least not regress) at DE. They just slotted the money for Gregory, only.

Take Elliott. They paid him a massive contract. One would think that it's because they view the importance of a TB to this offense, hence why they paid a talented TB all that money. But if Elliott could retire tomorrow with no cap implications for the Cowboys and Henry or Kamara or Cook were free agents, would the Cowboys spend that kind of money on talented TBs to replace him? Nope.

What we are seeing is a disconnect between what they are willing to pay their own players that they like and what they are willing to pay to fill the position if "their" player left or wasn't here.

Zeke has 9500 APY and 68 TDS in 88 starts.

I think they got their return on investment.
 

Sydla

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Zeke has 9500 APY and 68 TDS in 88 starts.

I think they got their return on investment.

They have won one playoff game and been in the playoffs only 3 times in his 6 years in the league.

They absolutely did not get the return on their investment. They got a RB that racked up stats but didn't actually translate to overall team success. And now his contract is an anchor eating up almost 10% of the Cowboys cap.

No team in the last decade or more that has won anything has done what we did at TB. Shoot, the Rams gave the Cowboys the blueprint. They realized so much money tied up into a TB was a mistake. Jerry and Stephen learned nothing.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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That game wasn't anywhere near as close as the scoreboard showed. Same with Arizona.

They very much struggled offensively and the "tells" were probably there well before SF....they were just the first to say it publicly.

This happens over and over with this organization, and not only is it somehow not a fireable offense, but nothing seems to ever be done about it.

Everyone worries about this and that with roster upgrades, meanwhile we are telling our opponent which play we are running beforehand.

THATS the damn problem.

Until we cease to be outcoached when it matters, what's the difference who we sign or don't sign to play?
I agree. And it sickens me these fans keep looking at the scoreboard to determine how close a game was lol…49ers whooped their ***. Punched them in the mouth from start to finish.
 

CATCH17

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I’ve just gave up on them.

The only thing changing this franchise is a phenom QB.
 

CowboyoWales

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I agree. And it sickens me these fans keep looking at the scoreboard to determine how close a game was lol…49ers whooped their ***. Punched them in the mouth from start to finish.
Keeping the analogy going...they kept punching us in the mouth, but we stayed off the canvas. We had the punchers chance and wore them down, but failed to come back and land the KO blow.
Our team, as seen by the resources allocated to it is built on Offense...scoring one more point than the opposition.
That Jimmie Ward quote is enough proof of where the reason for failure lies....the 49ers were out of it, but with 3 mins left Dak couldn't get it done (twice).
 

GORICO

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CowboysZone DIEHARD Fan
PM me for pricing structure, I too have a cap, and the cap is a real thing.

i wish i could have been there...i believe you told me ( i do not trust my memory so if i am wrong please let me know )....that you cooked that big catfish and treated the community to total feast

i can imagine the hush puppies that went with it.....wish i could have been there but i get to see the picture of the brother of hopefully our next LT?
 

GORICO

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their way isn't flawed, or you guys wouldn't be here. they know what they are doing

correct we are the "what ever name you want to subscribe to us"...we come every year to cheer on the cowboys......and in the offseason i am like the Anti- cowboy' leadership fan...but come football season

the 10 star or triple or quadruple Plats for guarantee wins are flying left and right...cause i am a 50 year cowboy Homer can....actually 51...January 1971 super bowl 5.....with severe stage 4 Cowboy Homer disease

so you can mess with the cowboys all you want during offseason and you are probably right....but come kick off opener in early September do not mess with my Cowboys....or you will have a severely crippled old

dude in his electric wheelchair to deal with.....and if that does not scare the be-jeeebies off of you....what can i say??????
 

CowboyFrog

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I don't think they look at player personnel, at least when it comes to FA, through the prism of position needs or overall team needs. They just look at players. They just want to grab bodies, especially their own, in FA.

Randy Gregory is a good DE. He's not a great DE. He was offered $70 million which is a pretty large contract for a DE. That kind of contract would give you the impression that the Cowboys realize they have a big need at DE opposite Lawrence. And yet, when Gregory bolts, they make no moves to land an equally talented or better DE. That $70 million "budgeted" for DE vaporizes. Because it wasn't budgeted for a high level DE. It was just budgeted for Gregory. They signed a couple of cheapies and move onto the draft. They didn't slot $70 million to get better (or at least not regress) at DE. They just slotted the money for Gregory, only.

Take Elliott. They paid him a massive contract. One would think that it's because they view the importance of a TB to this offense, hence why they paid a talented TB all that money. But if Elliott could retire tomorrow with no cap implications for the Cowboys and Henry or Kamara or Cook were free agents, would the Cowboys spend that kind of money on talented TBs to replace him? Nope.

What we are seeing is a disconnect between what they are willing to pay their own players that they like and what they are willing to pay to fill the position if "their" player left or wasn't here.


Chris Arnold said on the radio this morning that he talks to alot of agents and they all say the same thing....JR does not like to negotiate because he is not good at it, Daddy was but only comes in at the 12th hour now...makes sense though, when dealing with people he knows JR is comfortable, in hard nose negotiations he is out because he doesnt know how to close a deal...
 

DFWJC

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I know we spend countless hours harping on all the mistakes the FO makes, and our expectations should be high.....but I think this roster is better than 20 minimum and maybe 25 other rosters in the league.

I guess our perfection in our own lives allows us perfect right to expect perfection from everyone else.
Being better than the vast majority just will not do!
 

Nova

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The strategy sucks because they suck at Free Agency and trades.

Drafting wise, they’re pretty good at not reaching and getting good value for their draft slot.

But the draft game is a year to year strategy of exactly that; getting the best value at draft position.

It is not, and cannot, be a long term team building plan, unless you have coaches who are extremely good at adjusting their game plans to the players they have.

Otherwise, to form a coherent identity, you have to make moves in FA. You have to be comfortable with trading guys or picks that you value highly. And you have to be bold enough to risk the future of your team to seize a fleeting opportunity.

This team doesn’t do that.
 

LACowboysFan1

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I don't think they look at player personnel, at least when it comes to FA, through the prism of position needs or overall team needs. They just look at players. They just want to grab bodies, especially their own, in FA.

Randy Gregory is a good DE. He's not a great DE. He was offered $70 million which is a pretty large contract for a DE. That kind of contract would give you the impression that the Cowboys realize they have a big need at DE opposite Lawrence. And yet, when Gregory bolts, they make no moves to land an equally talented or better DE. That $70 million "budgeted" for DE vaporizes. Because it wasn't budgeted for a high level DE. It was just budgeted for Gregory. They signed a couple of cheapies and move onto the draft. They didn't slot $70 million to get better (or at least not regress) at DE. They just slotted the money for Gregory, only.

Take Elliott. They paid him a massive contract. One would think that it's because they view the importance of a TB to this offense, hence why they paid a talented TB all that money. But if Elliott could retire tomorrow with no cap implications for the Cowboys and Henry or Kamara or Cook were free agents, would the Cowboys spend that kind of money on talented TBs to replace him? Nope.

What we are seeing is a disconnect between what they are willing to pay their own players that they like and what they are willing to pay to fill the position if "their" player left or wasn't here.

So basically what you are saying is they can't evaluate talent.

Agree....
 

Jarntt

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I don't think they look at player personnel, at least when it comes to FA, through the prism of position needs or overall team needs. They just look at players. They just want to grab bodies, especially their own, in FA.

Randy Gregory is a good DE. He's not a great DE. He was offered $70 million which is a pretty large contract for a DE. That kind of contract would give you the impression that the Cowboys realize they have a big need at DE opposite Lawrence. And yet, when Gregory bolts, they make no moves to land an equally talented or better DE. That $70 million "budgeted" for DE vaporizes. Because it wasn't budgeted for a high level DE. It was just budgeted for Gregory. They signed a couple of cheapies and move onto the draft. They didn't slot $70 million to get better (or at least not regress) at DE. They just slotted the money for Gregory, only.

Take Elliott. They paid him a massive contract. One would think that it's because they view the importance of a TB to this offense, hence why they paid a talented TB all that money. But if Elliott could retire tomorrow with no cap implications for the Cowboys and Henry or Kamara or Cook were free agents, would the Cowboys spend that kind of money on talented TBs to replace him? Nope.

What we are seeing is a disconnect between what they are willing to pay their own players that they like and what they are willing to pay to fill the position if "their" player left or wasn't here.
While I agree in part with what you are saying and we absolutely overvalue our own players, it would be asinine to assume that if you don't get one DE or RB or whatever that you should just turn around and make an offer the next guy on your list that plays the same position. That's not scouting, it's fantasy football.
 

Sydla

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While I agree in part with what you are saying and we absolutely overvalue our own players, it would be asinine to assume that if you don't get one DE or RB or whatever that you should just turn around and make an offer the next guy on your list that plays the same position. That's not scouting, it's fantasy football.

The fact the Cowboys were willing to pay a good DE $70 million should tell us they viewed DE as a position of need. How you can then come back with Dante Fowler as the solution is a mystery. Unless, as I said, they don't give a crap about positions and really only care about the player they are signing, not the hole they are filling. No one said they had to go the #2 pass rusher after Gregory bolted. But they went from Gregory to the bargain bin in a blink of an eye.

No matter which way you want to look at it, the Cowboys seemingly don't have much of a strategy here on how to build a team.
 

Robster8989

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I don't think they look at player personnel, at least when it comes to FA, through the prism of position needs or overall team needs. They just look at players. They just want to grab bodies, especially their own, in FA.

Randy Gregory is a good DE. He's not a great DE. He was offered $70 million which is a pretty large contract for a DE. That kind of contract would give you the impression that the Cowboys realize they have a big need at DE opposite Lawrence. And yet, when Gregory bolts, they make no moves to land an equally talented or better DE. That $70 million "budgeted" for DE vaporizes. Because it wasn't budgeted for a high level DE. It was just budgeted for Gregory. They signed a couple of cheapies and move onto the draft. They didn't slot $70 million to get better (or at least not regress) at DE. They just slotted the money for Gregory, only.

Take Elliott. They paid him a massive contract. One would think that it's because they view the importance of a TB to this offense, hence why they paid a talented TB all that money. But if Elliott could retire tomorrow with no cap implications for the Cowboys and Henry or Kamara or Cook were free agents, would the Cowboys spend that kind of money on talented TBs to replace him? Nope.

What we are seeing is a disconnect between what they are willing to pay their own players that they like and what they are willing to pay to fill the position if "their" player left or wasn't here.

I just feel that our managment, along with most fans, have a complete misunderstanding of the cap and how it works, and that is a large part of our problem and we we wallow in mediocraty.
Gregory did not a get a 5 year 70 mil deal. He did not get a guaranteed 14 mil per year. He got basically a 2 year deal worth about 22.
His cap hit for the Broncos this year is 5.6 mil. That's about a mil less than what Fowler and Armstrong are costing us.
If he plays well, I'd expect they keep him and renegotiate (restructure) his 16 mil hit next season, reducing it and opening up space for others.
If he plays poorly, or has diciplinary issues, they could cut him, and take all the hit next year or spread that 16 mil hit over 2 years (depending on when they cut him and their cap situation next year.
Look at the Rams as an example.
How do they keep signing these stars?
They are smart. They take risks. Sometimes they pay off, sometimes they dont. When they make a mistake (like Gurley), they just move on and take the hit. It affects them for a year (or 2), but then they are done with their mistake.
We keep milking Zeke, like he's suddenly going to find a time machine and get back to what he was 4 years ago (and we keep paying him his contrcat, and even restructuring it). That's a huge mistake.
The other thing I'll say is to stop thinking in terms of the past as it relates to cap space.
Gregory's 2022 hit is just 5.6, and future hits will come when the cap explodes.
The cap is expected to rise as much as 40 mil just next year, and hit 308 mil by 2026.
A few years ago the cap was 150. By 2026 it will be over 300.
Gregory's 14 mil per year today is much less that what we gave Tyrone Crawford on his last contract, as far as a % of the cap.
The cap is a future number, not a static number.
Our owners are too old school. They think in terms of the NFL of the past. Cooper made us mad so we are going to ruin him. All we did was ruin ourselves. Coop will be fine (and Lael).
Do you know that Coop is costing us more cap space this year than he is costing the Browns?
And Lael will cost us more than he is costing the Bengals once we officially release him June 1.
Is that smart? We are paying Coop and Collins to play for other teams. They are good players.
Now we have holes at WR and T. We will either need to invest high picks now (and forgo other pressing needs), or go back to FA after the draft and sign other players. I'll tell you, we won't find anyone as good as Coop or Lael in FA, though we may in the draft.
The truth is the modern NFL has passed the Jones' by. They need professional NFL people to manage this team (we do pretty well in the draft due to Mclay. We need a cap expert, because Jerry and Steven are just not that.
 
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