CFZ Why I think the team should switch to a 3-4

Majic · Jun 1, 2022

fivetwos said:
Agree with your overall point, and you can run XO circles around me so it's not that, but it sure looked like Wade Phillips was running a traditional 34 defense here during his tenure.

I think the 34/43 thing went out the window with the rule changes which opened up scoring so every housewife in America wanted a fantasy team.

The memory ain't what it once was lol, but maybe 2012 on that?

The 3-4 is still relevant.

Jaguars, Raiders, Vikings, Seahawks, Eagles to name 5 have all talked about this formation and are re-building their teams around this (Just look at some of the players and coaches they have acquired since the season end). It is a stop the run first alignment but if you listen to coaches like Wade, his DEF's primary aim is to disrupt the QB and he believed the 3-4 was the best way to do this as you don't know where that extra rusher is coming from.

mrmojo · Jun 1, 2022

Defense? They still play defense in the NFL? Whether its 3-4 or 4-3 or Nickle, with today's rules offenses can still get in FG in 13 seconds from their own 25.

RustyBourneHorse · Jun 1, 2022

mrmojo said:
Defense? They still play defense in the NFL? Whether its 3-4 or 4-3 or Nickle, with today's rules offenses can still get in FG in 13 seconds from their own 25.

Quinn certainly got our defence to play it.

ColeBeasley11 · Jun 2, 2022

We play nickel 80 percent of the time we’re not going 3-4. We don’t have the MLBs or DEs to run it anyways.

ColeBeasley11 · Jun 2, 2022

mrmojo said:
Defense? They still play defense in the NFL? Whether its 3-4 or 4-3 or Nickle, with today's rules offenses can still get in FG in 13 seconds from their own 25.

That was Mahomes. That doesn’t happy regularly lol.

Dak_Attack_09 · Jun 2, 2022

RustyBourneHorse said:
I think switching to a more through hybrid/proper 3-4 may be smart for the defence. They're built for it imo. I'd have, just picturing it in my head, Gallimore or Osa rotating, John Ridgeway or Bohanna, and Tank Lawrence on the Dline. Then I'd have Sam Williams on one end and Parsons on the other end of LB, we'd then have LVE and Cox at the interior LB position.

I think this may be a deadly way to deal with those two. Firstly, having that Dline lineup means the oline can't really try to double team anyone for starters because those dlinemen are very strong pass rushers in their own right. Secondly, they're also very good run stoppers, and they are very good (especially Ridgeway) at being able to push the oline back as he swallows the blocks making the RB have to hesitate. This would allow LVE and Cox to get him down on the backfield. As for the pass bit, even if the oline wanted to try to double team, they can't. Double team Parsons or LVE, and the other basically has free run at the QB and are men on a mission. Also, the defence seems to be built to handle more of the 3-4 with the players we have.

At least in my head, the way I see it is the players I mentioned would make it incredibly difficult for the QB to get the pass off, and it'll make stopping the run easier because of the personnel on the field. Furthermore, it allows a bit more ease for Sam Williams to rush the passer. Sort of like having a Charles Haley and a DWare both going at the QB at the same time. The secondary's job would be much easier.

Hell No, don’t want Mile Nolan season again.

xwalker · Jun 2, 2022

Majic said:
The 3-4 is still relevant.

Jaguars, Raiders, Vikings, Seahawks, Eagles to name 5 have all talked about this formation and are re-building their teams around this (Just look at some of the players and coaches they have acquired since the season end). It is a stop the run first alignment but if you listen to coaches like Wade, his DEF's primary aim is to disrupt the QB and he believed the 3-4 was the best way to do this as you don't know where that extra rusher is coming from.

Wade played a 4 man DL vs 3 WRa...

conner01 · Jun 2, 2022

xwalker said:
I'll repeat what I just posted in another thread:

4-3 and 3-4 are outdated concepts. Most modern defenses (Except Marinelli's) are more complex than can be described by those terms.
- It would be much better to think of those in 3 digit terms: DL - Edge - LB
- i.e. 3-4 = 3-2-2 and 4-3 = 2-2-3

Even as simple concepts, most fans don't understand the difference in 3-4 vs 4-3.

Fans think 3-4 is a pass defense but in reality it is a run defense.
- The difference in 3-4 vs 4-3 in terms of players is that the 4-3 SLB (240) is removed and the 3-4 NT (320+) is added.
- The OLB in the 3-4 are normally players that play DE in a 4-2-5 Nickel (i.e. They're really small DEs not big LBs).
- That means that the 3-4 is really a 5-2 with stand-up DEs.

It is not possible to play Nickel from a true 3-4 defense.
- Teams that play 3-4 base normally play 4-2-5 Nickel in obvious passing situations.
- Modern defenses average over 70% of snaps in Nickel.

Dan Quinn played a multiple front defense in 2021.
- The primary defense was a 4-2-5 Nickel (2-2-2-5).
- The next most used defense was Big Nickel (3 Safeties) with Kearse in a hybrid LB role.
- A 4 digit designation would be even better: DL - Edge - LB - CB
- Then Nickel = 2-2-2-3 and Big Nickel = 2-2-2-2
- Quinn's DT version of the Big Nickel looked similar to a 3-4.

MP=Micah Parson
sDE = Stand-Up DE

Big Nickel with DTs
.....MP.....DT.....DT.....DT.....sDE
.....................LB...........................Nickel DB = Kearse

Nickel with extra DEs (Often with DL next to MP, Gregory at sDE and Armstrong inside of Gregory).
.....MP.....DE.....DT.....DE.....sDE
.....................LB...........................Nickel DB = CB Lewis

Nickel (MP=Edge)
.....MP.....DE.....DT.....DT.....sDE
.....................LB...........................Nickel DB = CB Lewis

Nickel (MP=LB)
......DE.....DT.....DT.....sDE
..........MP..................LB..............Nickel DB = CB Lewis

5-man DL
.....sDE.....DE.....DT.....DE.....sDE
..........................MP..........................Nickel DB

Can we get this stickied at the top of the page lol
Then you can just cut and paste next time

Majic · Jun 3, 2022

xwalker said:
Wade played a 4 man DL vs 3 WRa...

Yes and in Denver he did. But what I was trying to explain was the following:

Wade Phillips played in a 4-3 defensive scheme in college, as a linebacker at Houston in the 1960s. But he went on to become a defensive coordinator who would specialize in implementing the 3-4 scheme, one he will transition the Los Angeles Rams to in 2017.

He just thinks it's a better defense.

"When you have a 4-3, you have four linemen, those are the four guys that are rushing," Phillips said. "When you have a 3-4, you have three linemen and somebody else is coming from somewhere because it’s going to be a four-man rush most of the time. It gives an advantage of them not knowing, protection-wise. I think it helps you, pass defense-wise. If you look at our pass defenses over the years, you look at our sacks over the years, they’ve all been top of the league. And I think that’s the key to beating people is stopping the passing game in this league. That’s why I’ve stuck with the 3-4."

xwalker · Jun 3, 2022

Majic said:
Yes and in Denver he did. But what I was trying to explain was the following:

Wade Phillips played in a 4-3 defensive scheme in college, as a linebacker at Houston in the 1960s. But he went on to become a defensive coordinator who would specialize in implementing the 3-4 scheme, one he will transition the Los Angeles Rams to in 2017.

He just thinks it's a better defense.

"When you have a 4-3, you have four linemen, those are the four guys that are rushing," Phillips said. "When you have a 3-4, you have three linemen and somebody else is coming from somewhere because it’s going to be a four-man rush most of the time. It gives an advantage of them not knowing, protection-wise. I think it helps you, pass defense-wise. If you look at our pass defenses over the years, you look at our sacks over the years, they’ve all been top of the league. And I think that’s the key to beating people is stopping the passing game in this league. That’s why I’ve stuck with the 3-4."

Which of these 2 are more similar to each other?
1: Marinelli 4-3
2: Wade 3-4
3: Parcells 3-4

Answer: 1 & 2

Marinelli's RDE played a wide alignment and his LDE played a tight alignment.

Ratliff generally aligned as a 1tech more than 0tech.

Wade's defense required a very specific player for the Anthony Spencer position.
- Anytime Spencer was out, they struggled to replace him because backup pass rushers couldn't handle his coverage duties.
- Spencer was on par with Damien Wilson in coverage ability.

J-man · Jun 3, 2022

I agree, this team has the personal to be a very good 3/4. Parsons' best position in the NFL would be as an 3/4 OLB.

But as was said already, most teams are getting away from traditional formations so it's kind of a moot point.

Jarntt · Jun 3, 2022

RustyBourneHorse said:
I think switching to a more through hybrid/proper 3-4 may be smart for the defence. They're built for it imo. I'd have, just picturing it in my head, Gallimore or Osa rotating, John Ridgeway or Bohanna, and Tank Lawrence on the Dline. Then I'd have Sam Williams on one end and Parsons on the other end of LB, we'd then have LVE and Cox at the interior LB position.

I think this may be a deadly way to deal with those two. Firstly, having that Dline lineup means the oline can't really try to double team anyone for starters because those dlinemen are very strong pass rushers in their own right. Secondly, they're also very good run stoppers, and they are very good (especially Ridgeway) at being able to push the oline back as he swallows the blocks making the RB have to hesitate. This would allow LVE and Cox to get him down on the backfield. As for the pass bit, even if the oline wanted to try to double team, they can't. Double team Parsons or LVE, and the other basically has free run at the QB and are men on a mission. Also, the defence seems to be built to handle more of the 3-4 with the players we have.

At least in my head, the way I see it is the players I mentioned would make it incredibly difficult for the QB to get the pass off, and it'll make stopping the run easier because of the personnel on the field. Furthermore, it allows a bit more ease for Sam Williams to rush the passer. Sort of like having a Charles Haley and a DWare both going at the QB at the same time. The secondary's job would be much easier.

Tank a 260lbs 3-4 DE???
Cox and LVE as your ILBs in a 3-4 on run downs???
Please no

Majic · Jun 3, 2022

Jarntt said:
Tank a 260lbs 3-4 DE???
Cox and LVE as your ILBs in a 3-4 on run downs???
Please no

Some scouts had Cox projecting best as an ILB in a 3-4 scheme, prior to the draft.

xwalker · Jun 3, 2022

Majic said:
Some scouts had Cox projecting best as an ILB in a 3-4 scheme, prior to the draft.

Link?

Majic · Jun 4, 2022

xwalker said:
Link?

This was projected him as an OLB.

Jabril Cox Draft Profile | betweenthetackles.co (betweenthetacklesfootball.com)

This an ILB

Jabril Cox Scouting Report – Front Office Scouting

Bullflop · Jun 4, 2022

I feel confident that Dan Quinn will utilize the 3-4 defense wisely. He's a smart DC -- it's likely a safe bet that he'll make us proud. :thumbup:

buybuydandavis · Jun 4, 2022

Majic said:
He certainly did and Glenn was a great signing by Bill

Biggest unheralded Cowboy tragedy was Glenn's knee going out. He was basically a WR1b. Glenn's knee was the domino that set in motion the waste of the team that Parcell's built.

Losing in 2007. Signing Roy in 2008. There went the window for that team.

beware_d-ware · Jun 4, 2022

xwalker said:
Link?

It's not that unbelievable. One of the ILBs in 3-4 defenses is usually a Will type speed backer, and few teams even run straight 3-4 base any more anyway. It's a matchup-based league now, and defensive sets are amorphous.

On an editoral, I wonder how much of that is due to the decline of the run game. When you're defending the run, gap integrity is everything, and strict 3-4 lineups with a strong side shift etc help make sense of that. But for defending the pass, it's more like who has the skills to cover who, and how can we disguise our matchup to the QB.

Editorial of an editorial: I read an interesting quote from new Dolphins coach Mike McDaniel, who was asked why he signed an FB. He said that since plays are fairly uncommon now, and lead-blocker run plays are even more uncommon, that defenses don't even practice fitting them. His argument was that the sheer confusion of rolling out an FB will give him an edge in short yardage situations.

Majic · Jun 4, 2022

buybuydandavis said:
Biggest unheralded Cowboy tragedy was Glenn's knee going out. He was basically a WR1b. Glenn's knee was the domino that set in motion the waste of the team that Parcell's built.

Losing in 2007. Signing Roy in 2008. There went the window for that team.

Agreed, but we are talking Arron here not Terry

xwalker · Jun 4, 2022

Majic said:
This was projected him as an OLB.

Jabril Cox Draft Profile | betweenthetackles.co (betweenthetacklesfootball.com)

This an ILB

Jabril Cox Scouting Report – Front Office Scouting

That's like linking to a post on CowboysZone. Just the opinion of some dudes with a blog.
- I meant a real draft media report.
- Jabril's #1 talent is coverage. Why would anybody project him as a pass rusher?
- How would playing ILB in a 3-4 possibly be a better option for him than WLB in a 4-3?
- It doesn't really matter, because teams play over 70% in Nickel.

In 2022, Jabril will play the Keanu Neal role.
- In 2021, Neal was the coverage LB and LVE was the run downs LB.
- They were rarely on the field together except in the 4 games where Parsons played DE.

If everything really clicks for Jabril mentally, then they might play less Big Nickel (3 Safeties).
- In Big Nickel Kearse played the LB/DB hybrid role with another Safety playing his SS role.
- Big Nickel is the reason they never played a true 4-3 and rarely played a true 3-4.

If you consider Kearse a LB in the 3 Safety sets:
- This alignment looked like a 3-4 if you consider the sDE as a 3-4 OLB.
- However, it was really 4-3 type personnel with DLaw as the hand-down DE and Gregory as the sDE.

Big Nickel 4-2-5 (Looks like a 3-4 but personnel is more like 4-3):
.....MP..........DE.....DL.....DL..........sDE
....................LB....................Kearse

5-man DL
...............sDE.....DE.....DT.....DE.....sDE
Kearse.........................MP

Example1: Week 14, Skins, Q1 5:32
...............Basham.....DLaw.....Gallimore.....Armstrong.....Gregory
Kearse......................................Parsons

Example2: Week 15, NYG, Q1 8:16
...............Basham.....DLaw.................Armstrong.....Gallimore.....Gregory
Kearse................................Parsons

CFZ Why I think the team should switch to a 3-4

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