Are some of you mad at how we are building the team through the draft?

DandyDon52

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Cheap isn't giving a 4-year, $160-million contract to a quarterback. Cheap isn't giving a 6-year, $90-million contract to a running back. Maybe that's all Jerry, but it's happened while Stephen has been more visibly involved in the organization's decisions. Dallas doesn't shop in the bargain bin because it is cheap, it does so because that is the currently philosophy the Joneses follow. It seems that they are extremists. It's either spend big in FA like they did up to 2012 or pretty much don't spend at all. That's one of the biggest things IMO that make them bad GMs. You can't dig into a position and stubbornly stick to it no matter what. In order to produce a championship team, you've got to consider all options and be smart about how you use them.
yes you cant get in a rut with one philosophy , you have to do what is best at the time and work with a plan.
Jones boys also dont have plans, they ad lib a lot and just fix things and think it is all good now we fixed that.
 

IrishAnto

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They've only just started going down this road, of fire sale. By all means use the tried and tested 1996 argument and the fact that we need an actual GM not named Jones, but you cant really argue we're using the same strategy.
How do you know what strategy they're using since they've only just started?
Relying on the current propaganda coming from the Star?
The fact is they've chopped and changed many times over the last 26 years. 4-3, 3-4, HC with a SB ring, trainee HC, high priced free agents, low ball free agents etc.
The one thing they haven't done for over 30 years, is invest proper capital in a QB.
Maybe they should try that.
 

IrishAnto

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Three starters does not a championship team make. When you have Connor Williams starting at guard because you won't replace him with an outside FA. When your DTs are either cheap FAs or draft picks who have not shown they can play at a high level. That's when you lose to teams like San Francisco in the playoffs because those draft picks you hit on are not enough to overcome your weaknesses.

Super Bowl teams use the draft and free agency to win. We have one arm tied behind our back. And it's sad because since the Joneses adopted this strategy of no major free agents, we've been one of the better drafting teams. If we actually used FA more than just as a cheap roster filler, maybe our results would be better (although we still would have had to overcome Garrett's coaching).
"although we still would have had to overcome Garrett's coaching" and Jerry and Stephen Jones, They're some big obstacles to overcome.
 

IrishAnto

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OK. Didn't realize you were responding to someone else. The Joneses' philosophy is definitely reward our own, and unlike some others, I really don't have a problem with that. The players get what the market is paying.

It makes me laugh when some of our fans say that the Joneses have gotten cheap. I think the contracts you mentioned, along with some others like Elliott's and Lawrence's, show that isn't the case. They are willing to pay. They are just not willing to pay for high-priced outside free agents, primarily because some like Brandon Carr didn't live up to the price tag. I think that's a very short-sighted philosophy in light of other teams showing that FA can be used to help you win Super Bowls.
To be fair to Brandon Carr, the year after they signed him (and drafted Mo Claiborne) who were noted for their man marking, they fired Rob Ryan and brought in Kiffen and Marinelli who were zone disciples and Nobody on that defense did much of anything.
If you're going to get talent (either via the draft, trade or free agency) you'd better know how to best use them.
 

IrishAnto

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I guess I should have made my point clear. Yes, Stephen is cheap when it comes to paying FAs, but he doesn’t mind overpaying and overvaluing players that the team drafts. You can list the bad contracts and with the exception of Martin, they were drafted by the Cowboys, overpaid by the Cowboys and they have underperformed as Cowboys. I will repeat my point clearly this time. Since Stephen took over, the team doesn’t sign quality FAs. They invest in homegrown talent without spending money on FAs and they are far from being a legit playoff team. I don’t want to see dumb FA signings like Carr, but spending money to fill the holes on the roster with quality FAs ,that offers value, is a must if they want a team that can win a playoff game. The yearly dumpster diving contest that Stephen likes to participate in has become a running joke. The approach to team building is one of the worst in the league. Every year the team signs cheap FAs that are lucky to make the roster and they get just what they pay for. Dumpster diving doesn’t produce starter quality players, no matter how many times they say that they like their guys. Every decent team in the league fills holes on the roster with smart FA signings. The Rams had some nice FAs that helped win a Super Bowl. Tampa has some rather nice FA signings that played a big part in winning a championship. Dallas doesn’t sign guys like Suh, Miller, the Honey Badger, and the list goes on.
What position?

The biggest need might be Swing Tackle.

I think Dan Quinn likes the defensive roster and likes to have young players that he can mold to play his style.

A 2nd LB is not a full time starter due to Kearse playing LB on a significant percentage of snaps (40% of snaps in 2021 were with 3 Safeties).

DLaw will remain on the roster a few years now that he signed a new contract.

They paid Armstrong to be the veteran stopgap until Sam Williams is ready to be a full time starter.

Fowler as the the 4th DE is good. He's really close to 5th due to Parsons pass rushing snaps being included.

A true 1tech DT won't play a high percent of snaps and they have 3 options with Watkins/Bohanna/Ridgeway.

They have three 3rd rounders and a 2nd round pick at 3tech.

On offense they knew that they would draft 1 premium OLineman.

There is not point signing a free agent that is just somewhat better than Biadasz. It's either the top OC or just stay with Biadasz/McGovern/Farniok.

Schultz is on the tag which means they were not going to sign replacement.

They're stuck with Zeke for 2022.

Gallup got the new contract.
- They consider Lamb WR#1

They signed Washington as the stopgap veteran WR while Gallup is out and the rookie develops.

It comes back to Swing Tackle for me; although Josh Ball or Waldo only need to be as good as the Swing Tackles they've had the past few years which is not a high bar.

If they're really contending this season but have 1 obvious problem position, I think they'll consider trade options. The problem position is often not what anybody expected in June because it is often injury related.

Last season the OL was not a big problem until after the trade deadline. In the 1st half of the season it appeared they would have good depth when La'el returned from suspension but Tyron injured his ankle and La'el was average at best.

Connor Williams didn't have excessive penalties until 2021. It was hard to predict that he would regress.
Marinelli liked his defensive roster too and young players he could mold to play his style.
How did that work?
In addition they didn't draft a premium OLineman.
They spent a 1st on a small school player with technique issues who may turn out to be premium in time, but there is quite the difference.
 

Flamma

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What position?

The biggest need might be Swing Tackle.

I think Dan Quinn likes the defensive roster and likes to have young players that he can mold to play his style.

A 2nd LB is not a full time starter due to Kearse playing LB on a significant percentage of snaps (40% of snaps in 2021 were with 3 Safeties).

DLaw will remain on the roster a few years now that he signed a new contract.

They paid Armstrong to be the veteran stopgap until Sam Williams is ready to be a full time starter.

Fowler as the the 4th DE is good. He's really close to 5th due to Parsons pass rushing snaps being included.

A true 1tech DT won't play a high percent of snaps and they have 3 options with Watkins/Bohanna/Ridgeway.

They have three 3rd rounders and a 2nd round pick at 3tech.

On offense they knew that they would draft 1 premium OLineman.

There is not point signing a free agent that is just somewhat better than Biadasz. It's either the top OC or just stay with Biadasz/McGovern/Farniok.

Schultz is on the tag which means they were not going to sign replacement.

They're stuck with Zeke for 2022.

Gallup got the new contract.
- They consider Lamb WR#1

They signed Washington as the stopgap veteran WR while Gallup is out and the rookie develops.

It comes back to Swing Tackle for me; although Josh Ball or Waldo only need to be as good as the Swing Tackles they've had the past few years which is not a high bar.

If they're really contending this season but have 1 obvious problem position, I think they'll consider trade options. The problem position is often not what anybody expected in June because it is often injury related.

Last season the OL was not a big problem until after the trade deadline. In the 1st half of the season it appeared they would have good depth when La'el returned from suspension but Tyron injured his ankle and La'el was average at best.

Connor Williams didn't have excessive penalties until 2021. It was hard to predict that he would regress.

Anywhere along the OL not including C. Love Tyrone, but he's not playing every game. Look what the Eagles could do without a quarterback and a good offensive line. Look how the Cowboys played in 2016 with a rookie at QB, an average to poor defense, and a so so receiving corp.
 

kskboys

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Marinelli liked his defensive roster too and young players he could mold to play his style.
How did that work?
In addition they didn't draft a premium OLineman.
They spent a 1st on a small school player with technique issues who may turn out to be premium in time, but there is quite the difference.
Yes, some issues, but also already has pro strength and is a mean a s s mauler. Plus, playing him at OG reduces the technique issues automatically. He is pro ready. Just not at OT.
 

CATCH17

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Dallas sticks to their plan that never works and gets the same results.

Their plan will never work without a way better QB prospect.

With Dak we need a nearly perfect roster to do anything. Not that he’s bad he’s just not capable of doing what these top tier QBs can do but yet he’s paid to do what they do.
 

kskboys

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yes you cant get in a rut with one philosophy , you have to do what is best at the time and work with a plan.
Jones boys also dont have plans, they ad lib a lot and just fix things and think it is all good now we fixed that.
Which leads to the STs draft, constantly drafting WR's and CB's high and giving up major resources for them, and passing up major talents on the DLine and S.
 

gimmesix

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To be fair to Brandon Carr, the year after they signed him (and drafted Mo Claiborne) who were noted for their man marking, they fired Rob Ryan and brought in Kiffen and Marinelli who were zone disciples and Nobody on that defense did much of anything.
If you're going to get talent (either via the draft, trade or free agency) you'd better know how to best use them.

Carr was a solid player while he was here, but no matter what defense we used, that was all he was. The thing is, that was all he ever was. He was the best or second-best corner on the free agent market and we needed a corner, so the Joneses went out and got him for big money. Their problem is that they don't realize that was the mistake. You don't pay big money for solid players. You use free agency to get great players. Now, they won't use FA for either because they believe it doesn't pay off even though Super Bowl champs year after year show that it does and you don't get titles without using it.
 

gimmesix

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Dallas sticks to their plan that never works and gets the same results.

Their plan will never work without a way better QB prospect.

With Dak we need a nearly perfect roster to do anything. Not that he’s bad he’s just not capable of doing what these top tier QBs can do but yet he’s paid to do what they do.

Would you say the same about Matthew Stafford? Just trying to get your level of comparison because Stafford never accomplished anything (0-3 in the playoffs) in Detroit. He goes to LA with a "nearly perfect roster" and good coaching and wins.

Top-tier QB Aaron Rodgers has one Super Bowl title. Top-tier Hall of Famer Dan Marino has none.

No matter your level of play, it's all about the roster. Prescott is like any other quarterback. He cannot win without a good one. Yes, there are some QBs who can do more with less and there are some teams that can do more with less at QB, but there are not that many. It's a team game.

I do agree with you that I can't see Dallas' plan ever working, but I don't think the QB has much to do with it. They've had good enough QBs in Romo and Prescott, but not a good enough team. We can't overtake the better teams in the league not making good use of free agency.
 

CATCH17

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Would you say the same about Matthew Stafford? Just trying to get your level of comparison because Stafford never accomplished anything (0-3 in the playoffs) in Detroit. He goes to LA with a "nearly perfect roster" and good coaching and wins.

Top-tier QB Aaron Rodgers has one Super Bowl title. Top-tier Hall of Famer Dan Marino has none.

No matter your level of play, it's all about the roster. Prescott is like any other quarterback. He cannot win without a good one. Yes, there are some QBs who can do more with less and there are some teams that can do more with less at QB, but there are not that many. It's a team game.

I do agree with you that I can't see Dallas' plan ever working, but I don't think the QB has much to do with it. They've had good enough QBs in Romo and Prescott, but not a good enough team. We can't overtake the better teams in the league not making good use of free agency.


Stafford didn’t have teams as good as Dak.

I said Stafford was better than Dak while he was in Detroit and said I’d rather have him than Dak.

I thought the Rams gave up too much but looks like whatever they gave up was more than worth it in the end.
 

kskboys

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Carr was a solid player while he was here, but no matter what defense we used, that was all he was. The thing is, that was all he ever was. He was the best or second-best corner on the free agent market and we needed a corner, so the Joneses went out and got him for big money. Their problem is that they don't realize that was the mistake. You don't pay big money for solid players. You use free agency to get great players. Now, they won't use FA for either because they believe it doesn't pay off even though Super Bowl champs year after year show that it does and you don't get titles without using it.
Plus, Carr was strictly a press corner. It does matter what D is used, it matters a ton.

However, he quite simply did not possess the physical skillset to warrant his salary. Stupid signing, and no hindsight here, I thought so at the time.
 

kskboys

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Stafford didn’t have teams as good as Dak.

I said Stafford was better than Dak while he was in Detroit and said I’d rather have him than Dak.

I thought the Rams gave up too much but looks like whatever they gave up was more than worth it in the end.
I actually didn't. I thought it was obvious that 1) Goff was a very low level starter 2) Rams were/are talented as hades 3) They desperately needed a competent QB if they wanted to have any shot at all of getting to the big dance again.

Trading for Staffy was an absolutely brilliant move, opening up a 2-5 year super bowl window. It simply didn't matter what had to be given up, he was a way to get you there. Guarantee? Of course not, there are no guarantees. However, there was no one available who would've given you a better shot.

I was actually perplexed at people who thought it wasn't a good move.
 

gimmesix

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yes you cant get in a rut with one philosophy , you have to do what is best at the time and work with a plan.
Jones boys also dont have plans, they ad lib a lot and just fix things and think it is all good now we fixed that.

I think they have a plan, but it's not a good one. They have altered their philosophy multiple times over the years, failing each time. At some point, you have to realize that if nothing you do works, then you are the problem.
 

gimmesix

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"although we still would have had to overcome Garrett's coaching" and Jerry and Stephen Jones, They're some big obstacles to overcome.

Agreed. That's why we would have needed a great defense. There are three proven ways to win: an elite offense that carries an average defense, an elite defense that carries an average offense or a balanced top-10 offense and defense. Dallas was not going to have an elite offense under Garrett, but it did have some top-10 offenses. It needed at least a top-10 defense to balance that out, probably closer to top-5 due to Garrett's handcuffs.
 

gimmesix

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Plus, Carr was strictly a press corner. It does matter what D is used, it matters a ton.

However, he quite simply did not possess the physical skillset to warrant his salary. Stupid signing, and no hindsight here, I thought so at the time.

I agree it that it matters how the players are used, but the second part of what you said was the problem with the signing.
 

kskboys

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I agree it that it matters how the players are used, but the second part of what you said was the problem with the signing.
Most on the old site were excited and happy about the signing. I was livid. He was a #2 CB at KC and didn't possess the skillset to be a #1. Horrific player evaluation.
 
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