CFZ Basham and Williams Roughing the Passer Flags and Rule

America's Cowboy said:

It's become a joke. So defenders can't hit the QB anymore? What is a defender supposed to do? Stop short and allow the QB to step forward and complete a pass without touching him?

Click to expand...

Yep. That's where things stand. The guys that can't adapt and keep getting flagged shouldn't be on the field.

DallasEast said:

Feelings do not matter. Basham's head was up. He drew the penalty because he drove the quarterback into the ground. A simple tackle would have not drawn a flag.

The rule does not care about the split-second anyone perceives either. If Williams went in head up, the flag may not have been thrown.

The team must get a grip on these stupid penalties. Giving the opponent 15 yards and an automatic first down is too much in today's NFL, especially if your defense has not established itself as a dominant unit.

Here's what's worse. Giving a referee an opportunity to subjectively call the hit flagrant gets the player automatically disqualified. Do not give zebras an excuse to permanently sideline a player, especially if it is one of your best players on defense. Don't help refs. They do not care about Dallas winning anyway.

Click to expand...

I disagree with Basham driving him to the ground. He hit him legally and didn't scoop him up and drive him down.

atlantacowboy said:

Yep. That's where things stand. The guys that can't adapt and keep getting flagged shouldn't be on the field.

Click to expand...

Only 31% of people who agree with you are in the minority. The majority (61%) feel it was not a foul/roughing the passer.

atlantacowboy said:

Yep. That's where things stand. The guys that can't adapt and keep getting flagged shouldn't be on the field.

Click to expand...

and fans spewing garbage shouldnt be allowed to post..

There was nothing wrong with either play....it is just the ref's targeting the Cowboys....

FuzzyLumpkins said:

I disagree with Basham driving him to the ground. He hit him legally and didn't scoop him up and drive him down.

Click to expand...

QB was in a defenseless posture as defined by the rules. If Basham just pushes him and he falls, no big deal. But Basham wrapped up and ensured the QB would have a hard landing. Not purely driving him into the ground but unnecessary to wrap him up after the ball was thrown.

America's Cowboy said:

Only 31% of people who agree with you are in the minority. The majority (61%) feel it was not a foul/roughing the passer.

Click to expand...

On a Cowboys message board? The hell you say. Lol.

MarcusRock said:

QB was in a defenseless posture as defined by the rules. If Basham just pushes him and he falls, no big deal. But Basham wrapped up and ensured the QB would have a hard landing. Not purely driving him into the ground but unnecessary to wrap him up after the ball was thrown.

Click to expand...

He didn't wrap his arms around him either. Momentum is what it is. If the rules are made such that physical reality makes consciously obeying them impossible then the rule is the problem not the player.

FuzzyLumpkins said:

He didn't wrap his arms around him either. Momentum is what it is. If the rules are made such that physical reality makes consciously obeying them impossible then the rule is the problem not the player.

Click to expand...

He not only wrapped, he yanked his legs from under him to boot to make sure he had a harder landing. Sorry, but that's a flag each time. Williams' I'm iffy about. I'd have let that one slide.

MarcusRock said:

He not only wrapped, he yanked his legs from under him to boot to make sure he had a harder landing. Sorry, but that's a flag each time. Williams' I'm iffy about. I'd have let that one slide.

Click to expand...

That is fair. I am just curious how the DE is supposed to rush the passer. Just seems like a QB can jump throw a step before the DE gets there for a sure fire penalty every time.

What are people watching? I mean, I get this is a Dallas forum and it's 100% to NOT LIKE a rule, but Basham clearly had his arms around the QB, head down and put him on the turf under his momentum & weight. The QB would have stayed on his feet otherwise.

On the Basham tackle I think the issue is that the QB was already off the ground. Since the QB jumped before the throw it makes it harder to tackle him without driving him to the ground. The NFL should provide examples of how to tackle a QB that jumps before a throw.

On the second one it seems like the player just needs to keep his head up. The issue here is that keeping your head up might mean you have helmet to helmet contact unless you just lead with your hands.

I am not opposed to these rules as long as there are realistic ways the DL can take the QB without drawing a flag.

America's Cowboy said:

The officials got BOTH CALLS WRONG. The infuriating part is this is what they train for over and over for.

As for Troy and Booger, there have been times they get a call or two wrong.

Click to expand...

Some observers, who saw the plays, agree that one or both calls were wrong. However, not everyone agrees with those conclusions.

Everyone (there are no exceptions) gets calls wrong. How often is relative. That was not what I commented about. I spoke of the conclusion's logical fallacy.

Regardless whether any call is "right" or "wrong", the degree of personal sports experience is not a summary explanation for why anyone is correct or incorrect in their assessment of a penalty. Again, that conclusion surmises no one cannot accurately assess a penalty simply because they do not have any certain practical experience within said sport. That particular reasoning trips and falls down a bottomless pit.

Some people never play baseball but know an umpire scans an imaginary box sits above home plate perpendicular between the batter's shoulders and knees. They see a thrown ball go straight through the middle of the box and say, "That's a strike." Next pitch, they see the ball thrown, it flies through where the batter just dodged from, and say, "That's a ball." The conclusion would negate both observations as being correct BECAUSE they never played baseball.

The fallacy can be applied to every sport. Basketball. Fan says, "That's goaltending!" Player reached through the net for the block. The fan is wrong because he ran track in college instead.

Hockey. Player gets stuffed into a wall, falls, laid out on the ice. Fan says, "That's boarding!" The player is literally unconscious. The fan is wrong because he played tennis in high school.

It is one thing to say someone else's understanding of a penalty is flawed. It is a totally different thing to say, "[fill in the blank] does not automatically understand the penalty because he or she never stepped on a football field as [fill in the blank]". That is an extremely flawed premise.

America's Cowboy said:

Only 31% of people who agree with you are in the minority. The majority (61%) feel it was not a foul/roughing the passer.

Click to expand...

It doesn't matter what cowboy fans think! lol

It matters what officials are calling.

G2 said:

What are people watching? I mean, I get this is a Dallas forum and it's 100% to NOT LIKE a rule, but Basham clearly had his arms around the QB, head down and put him on the turf under his momentum & weight. The QB would have stayed on his feet otherwise.

Click to expand...

Bold> THAT is the $64,000 question.

FuzzyLumpkins said:

That is fair. I am just curious how the DE is supposed to rush the passer. Just seems like a QB can jump throw a step before the DE gets there for a sure fire penalty every time.

Click to expand...

Like with Williams, I think if they each just push the QB with their arms and the QB falls, that's not a foul. Basham also wrapped up and yanked the QB's legs and Williams dipped his head plus did a mini launch off the turf at him. Whether his helmet was first with the impact is the debatable part but both were "forcible contact" to a QB in his windup. Compare what Gregory did to Mac Jones last year in NE while he was still holding the ball. It was every bit as violent as Williams' hit but Jones wasn't a defenseless player because he didn't start a windup.

atlantacowboy said:

It doesn't matter what cowboy fans think! lol

It matters what officials are calling.

Click to expand...

Which is the main reason why I created the thread.

America's Cowboy said:

Only 31% of people who agree with you are in the minority. The majority (61%) feel it was not a foul/roughing the passer.

Click to expand...

Now pose this question on a site that isn't all Cowboys fans and see what the results are.

G2 said:

What are people watching? I mean, I get this is a Dallas forum and it's 100% to NOT LIKE a rule, but Basham clearly had his arms around the QB, head down and put him on the turf under his momentum & weight. The QB would have stayed on his feet otherwise.

Click to expand...

It's very clear while watching the video at the beginning of the thread. I don't see how anyone can say the helmet didn't hit him forcibly, when his body folds at the point of contact.

Runwildboys said:

Now pose this question on a site that isn't all Cowboys fans and see what the results are.

Click to expand...

Ejection!