Where does Ware rank w/ the top 10 defensive players in the national football league

tomson75 · Dec 28, 2010

theogt;3767108 said:
There are 41 ranked 3-4 DEs. Looking at stops per snap played, our DEs rank 17 (Spears), 28 (Bowen), 30 (Hatcher), and 32 (Olshanksy). Not good.

No, it's not. Especially since Olshansky (unless I missed a significant injury) likely saw considerably more playing time than either Hatcher or Bowen. Spears at least has an injury excuse. Either way, those stats suggest our interior defensive line is a sieve. At least the DE's. I'm sure Ratliff's stats were down this year as well....

Doomsday101 · Dec 28, 2010

tomson75;3767117 said:
Funny...I remember one instance where this happened and Collinsworth pointed it out.....suddenly, 'everyone' had been seen Ware do this all season. Amazing how that works.

Even if he has been guilty of that more often this year....those things can often be attributed to players trying to make up for their teammates' poor play.

Case in point...Polomalu has been guilty of this for several years. When it works out for him, he's the best player in the NFL...when it doesn't, he's vindicated by the play of his defensive teammates....good or bad. Ware isn't protected by this, yet continues to be one of the best players in the league.

Sorry I think I'm being fair about this. Hell I have never been one of those around here hollering to cut the entire team because how they play.

My view I don't think Ware is having one is his better seasons this year and it has nothing to do with what Collingsworth or anyone else has said it is based on my own view of what I have seen from Ware before and now.

Those who disagree with my view that is fine by me but I'm not going to play the pet cat act some like to do where they will not be critical of their pet.

Stautner · Dec 28, 2010

Ware is certainly among the better defensive players in the league, particularly among front 7 players. I think he is a bit overrated by a lot of Cowboy fans. I think sack totals sometimes trick people into thinking he is hitting the QB a lot and in the QB's face consistently, and I don't see that. There are individual games where this is the case, but most games i just don't see it that way. Obviously it hurts him that we don't get a very consistent pass rush from other players, but Ware gets blocked one on one quite a bit simply because teams have learned how to block him. It's rare that he gets to the QB with anything other than a pure speed move to the outside, and teams have learned that. Bottom line he is very good, but not the unstoppable beast some make him out to be.

aikemirv · Dec 28, 2010

I think this year Ware has tried to do too much and has lost conatinment more than ever in past years, but like I said that is in an effort to cover for other weaknesses on this team like the secondary and linebackers. It has caused him to be out of position.

But before this year I thought that there was nobody in the NFL that I would take over him in the 3-4 as OLB or in a 4-3 DE. I think he is the best at either position, not by far mind you but nobody I would take over him if you offered me a straight up trade!

tomson75 · Dec 28, 2010

Doomsday101;3767128 said:
Sorry I think I'm being fair about this. Hell I have never been one of those around here hollering to cut the entire team because how they play.

My view I don't think Ware is having one is his better seasons this year and it has nothing to do with what Collingsworth or anyone else has said it is based on my own view of what I have seen from Ware before and now.

Those who disagree with my view that is fine by me but I'm not going to play the pet cat act some like to do where they will not be critical of their pet.

I don't think you're being unfair. I just think these type of things are highly subject to people's perception...and people's perceptions are easily corrupted by suggestions like the one Collinsworth highlighted.

I'm critical of Ware as well....I don't think he played as well as he has in the past...it's not a difficult assumption to make. I just don't think its because he's suddenly 'not the player we thought he was' or 'he's not a top 10 player because so and so got more sacks this year'.

He's still one of the best defensive players in the league, arguably the best....he simply didn't play that way all year this year. It happens all the time...but time will eventually be the deciding factor, because these players aren't judged over the course of one season, but rather over the course of their careers.

....anyone suggesting that Mathews' is already better than Ware has a ton of ground to make up. I'll put my money on Ware.

TD-33 · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767132 said:
Ware is certainly among the better defensive players in the league, particularly among front 7 players. I think he is a bit overrated by a lot of Cowboy fans. I think sack totals sometimes trick people into thinking he is hitting the QB a lot and in the QB's face consistently, and I don't see that. There are individual games where this is the case, but most games i just don't see it that way. Obviously it hurts him that we don't get a very consistent pass rush from other players, but Ware gets blocked one on one quite a bit simply because teams have learned how to block him. It's rare that he gets to the QB with anything other than a pure speed move to the outside, and teams have learned that. Bottom line he is very good, but not the unstoppable beast some make him out to be.

Think Cinci or or the Bills might give us a 3rd for him? They need outside speed rushers. Maybe a 3rd and a 7?

Doomsday101 · Dec 28, 2010

tomson75;3767146 said:
I don't think you're being unfair. I just think these type of things are highly subject to people's perception...and people's perceptions are easily corrupted by suggestions like the one Collinsworth highlighted.

I'm critical of Ware as well....I don't think he played as well as he has in the past...it's not a difficult assumption to make. I just don't think its because he's suddenly 'not the player we thought he was' or 'he's not a top 10 player because so and so got more sacks this year'.

He's still one of the best defensive players in the league, arguably the best....he simply didn't play that way all year this year. It happens all the time...but time will eventually be the deciding factor, because these players aren't judged over the course of one season, but rather over the course of their careers.

....anyone suggesting that Mathews' is already better than Ware has a ton of ground to make up. I'll put my money on Ware.

I still think Ware is a great player all I have said is I don't think he is doing as well as he has in the past. Maybe as one poster said he is trying to do to much at times and when a player does that they can over run a play and get caught out of positon more often. I would also add just because I think Ware and others have not played as good this year does not mean I don't think they can improve greatly next season. This defense was ranked at the top in points allowed last season and I feel they can return to that.

theogt · Dec 28, 2010

tomson75;3767127 said:
No, it's not. Especially since Olshansky (unless I missed a significant injury) likely saw considerably more playing time than either Hatcher or Bowen. Spears at least has an injury excuse. Either way, those stats suggest our interior defensive line is a sieve. At least the DE's. I'm sure Ratliff's stats were down this year as well....

Bowen has played considerably more than I realized.

# of snaps:
Marcus Spears - 266
Jason Hatcher - 228
Stephen Bowen - 507
Igor Olshansky - 537

Ratliff is harder to compare with the rest of the league because they don't separate them into 3-4 and 4-3 NTs, but his numbers are down year over year. Even though his numbers are down, I think they're still very good for a 3-4 NT. PFF has Ratliff ranked 3rd in the league among all NTs vs the run.

Stautner · Dec 28, 2010

l2obert;3767149 said:
Think Cinci or or the Bills might give us a 3rd for him? They need outside speed rushers. Maybe a 3rd and a 7?

There is an endless supply of goofy posts.

AKATheRake · Dec 28, 2010

SacredStar;3765878 said:
Ware and Matthews have identical numbers in sacks, tackles, and forced fumbles. Since teams have doubled Matthews lately, his numbers have declined, just as Ware's have declined with him being doubled.

They are dead even.

Except Ware has to deal with the LT and Matthews the RT. Believe me, a world difference of talent there to constantly go up against.

TD-33 · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767166 said:
There is an endless supply of goofy posts.

pot, meet kettle

and

:sarcasm:

Stautner · Dec 28, 2010

l2obert;3767237 said:
pot, meet kettle

and

:sarcasm:

Tell me what was goofy about my post. Was there anything even remotely as goofy as the idea of trading Ware for a 3rd rounder? Spill the beans - what did you find to be goofy?

dalboy · Dec 28, 2010

why is ball not on this list?

theogt · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767242 said:
Tell me what was goofy about my post.

This part:

I think sack totals sometimes trick people into thinking he is hitting the QB a lot and in the QB's face consistently, and I don't see that.

He's consistently among the top in the league at QB hits and pressures. Among 3-4 OLBs, he was #1 in both hits and sacks in 2008, #2 in hits and #1 in pressures in 2009, #2 in pressures and #1 in sacks in 2010. No one else in the league has that kind of consistency.

You will often see an inverse relationship between sacks and pressures. Obviously if a guy gets 20 sacks instead of 12 sacks, those 8 additional sacks might have been pressures but aren't counted since they resulted in actual sacks.

Stautner · Dec 28, 2010

theogt;3767261 said:
This part:

He's consistently among the top in the league at QB hits and pressures. Among 3-4 OLBs, he was #1 in both hits and sacks in 2008, #2 in hits and #1 in pressures in 2009, #2 in pressures and #1 in sacks in 2010. No one else in the league has that kind of consistency.

You will often see an inverse relationship between sacks and pressures. Obviously if a guy gets 20 sacks instead of 12 sacks, those 8 additional sacks might have been pressures but aren't counted since they resulted in actual sacks.

You may disagree, and that's fine, but I'm not going into the realm of the ridiculous like the guy talking about trading Ware for a 3rd rounder.

I'll tell you what i see with Ware. My observation and opinion. His pressures and hits on the QB come in spurts. He may be very silent for most of the game, then have a series where he makes several plays, and that's what builds the pressure stats, and sometimes the sack stats. Again, there are individual games where I see him constantly in the face of the QB, but in most games it isn't a start to finish thing the way some seem to think.

AdamJT13 · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767314 said:
You may disagree, and that's fine, but I'm not going into the realm of the ridiculous like the guy talking about trading Ware for a 3rd rounder.

He was being sarcastic, which is why he posted the sarcasm meter.

rysko · Dec 28, 2010

charles woodson has 5 forced fumbles this year and is 3rd on the team in tackles behind 2 linebackers. imagine a cornerback like that.

AdamJT13 · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767314 said:
I'll tell you what i see with Ware. My observation and opinion. His pressures and hits on the QB come in spurts. He may be very silent for most of the game, then have a series where he makes several plays, and that's what builds the pressure stats, and sometimes the sack stats. Again, there are individual games where I see him constantly in the face of the QB, but in most games it isn't a start to finish thing the way some seem to think.

That's how it is for pass-rushers. Regardless of your opinion, Ware has been easily the most consistent pass-rusher in the league for the past five years, no matter whether you count sacks, pressures, hits or all of them combined.

theogt · Dec 28, 2010

Stautner;3767314 said:
I'll tell you what i see with Ware.

And I've told you what you're missing.

perrykemp · Dec 28, 2010

rysko;3767359 said:
charles woodson has 5 forced fumbles this year and is 3rd on the team in tackles behind 2 linebackers. imagine a cornerback like that.

Normally when your corner is one of your tackling leaders your defense has major problems, however, with Woodson it's pretty obvious he is an odd-duck of a Cornerback who likes to mix it up and hang around near the line of scrimmage a lot.

Where does Ware rank w/ the top 10 defensive players in the national football league

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