How long until Belichick is considered the greatest ever?

Risen Star · Jan 12, 2012

CATCH17;4373019 said:
Im sure any coach that is considered the best of all time probably had a HOF QB at some point.

But it's more impressive to me when your entire resume isn't built with a QB who will probably go down as the best ever.

CATCH17 · Jan 12, 2012

Risen Star;4373025 said:
But it's more impressive to me when your entire resume isn't built with a QB who will probably go down as the best ever.

I guess. He was an epic coordinator before he ever became the Pats coach. I know that doesn't mean much in this discussion.

If I could pick any coach of all time he probably wouldn't be the guy i'd go after but imo he probably is the best.

Wimbo · Jan 12, 2012

AdamJT13;4372708 said:
Sixteen NFL teams (including us) have won a playoff game since the Patriots' last playoff win ALMOST FOUR YEARS AGO (Jan. 20, 2008).

LOL! That is awesome. I did not realize that. I have a friend who is so busy slobbering on Brady every time I talk to him that I didn't realize how long it has been. Thanks - this helps me greatly.

zrinkill · Jan 12, 2012

People who do not know their history always think the people they watched play and coach are the best.

There are moronic youngsters out there who think Kobe and Lebron are better than Magic, Kareem, Wilt, and Jordon.

revospeed · Jan 12, 2012

zrinkill;4373035 said:
People who do not know their history always think the people they watched play and coach are the best.

There are moronic youngsters out there who think Kobe and Lebron are better than Magic, Kareem, Wilt, and Jordon.

Yeaaah.

TellerMorrow34 · Jan 12, 2012

Dhragon;4372648 said:
He needs to win a SB w/o Brady IMO.
And w/o cheating.

Why on Brady?

How many did Vince win without Bart Starr?

How many did Landry win without Roger?

How'd Jimmy do without Aikman?

How'd Chuck Noll do without Bradshaw?

Walsh without Montana?

You can't name a single big time, great, HC in the history of the NFL that's won multiple championships without an amazing QB.

Except one.

Joe Gibbs.

3x...3 different QBs.

So by what you're saying above Joe Gibbs is the GOAT?

Mr Cowboy · Jan 12, 2012

Let's take the star players away from those other great coaches.

Landry without Stabauch
Shula without Marino
Walsh without Young/Montana
Paul Brown without Jim Brown
Lombardi without Starr

How many Super Bowls do they win? How did Landry do without a star QB, in his last years? Shula? Walsh retired after Young and Montana.

I will put Landry at the top because he invented the defense that is prominent even today. Lambardi for innovating the power running game and Walsh for his innovative offense. Sid Gilman and Coryell as well for their innovations on offense.

But to dismiss Belichek's status as one of the best is not right. Sure he has Brady, but the year when Brady was out, he did pretty well with a QB who wasn't even a starter in College. whether you like him or not, he is one of the best, and climbing the latter every year.

And no, I am not a youngster...... I'm older than most on here.

TellerMorrow34 · Jan 12, 2012

Risen Star;4372946 said:
I'm not really trying to discredit Belichick. He's clearly a great coach. But when you want to claim he's the best of all time, and compare him with legends, I think you need to factor in the fact he only was great with Brady.

And as I said above Noll didn't win anything without Bradshaw.

Walsh won nothing without Montana.

Jimmy won nothing without Aikman.

Vince nothing without Starr.

And on and on and on.

So this really isn't a factor.

CATCH17;4373019 said:
Im sure any coach that is considered the best of all time probably had a HOF QB at some point.

Pretty much every single one of the big time names did. I think the only ones who haven't are John Gruden and that Ravens coach whose name is completely escaping me for some reason.

Risen Star · Jan 12, 2012

Mr Cowboy;4373102 said:
Let's take the star players away from those other great coaches.

Landry without Stabauch
Shula without Marino
Walsh without Young/Montana
Paul Brown without Jim Brown
Lombardi without Starr

How many Super Bowls do they win? How did Landry do without a star QB, in his last years? Shula? Walsh retired after Young and Montana.

I will put Landry at the top because he invented the defense that is prominent even today. Lambardi for innovating the power running game and Walsh for his innovative offense. Sid Gilman and Coryell as well for their innovations on offense.

But to dismiss Belichek's status as one of the best is not right. Sure he has Brady, but the year when Brady was out, he did pretty well with a QB who wasn't even a starter in College. whether you like him or not, he is one of the best, and climbing the latter every year.

And no, I am not a youngster...... I'm older than most on here.

The debate isn't if he's one of the best ever. It's is he the best of all time?

In order to get my vote on that you have to do something more than fail and get fired when you don't have the best QB to ever play the game.

Compare Landry without Staubach to Belichick without Brady. It's not even close.

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

Risen Star;4372653 said:
Or until he wins something without Tom Brady as his QB.

Failure in Cleveland. Started awful in New England. Then Brady arrived and he turned into the GOAT.

Failure in Cleveland? He was the last team to take that team to the playoffs at 11-5, while the owner was trying to move the team.

How many of the other great coaches (Landry/Walsh/Lombardi/etc) won multiple Super Bowls with different QB's?

UVAwahoos · Jan 12, 2012

Parcells did.

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

CATCH17;4373033 said:
I guess. He was an epic coordinator before he ever became the Pats coach. I know that doesn't mean much in this discussion.

If I could pick any coach of all time he probably wouldn't be the guy i'd go after but imo he probably is the best.

Not to mention he's the only one on the list of greatest ever who has had to deal with free agency. Others could build dynasties and have their team together for years. No longer the case. Belicheck had a dynasty when everyone thought dynasties were no longer possible. GOAT.

Risen Star · Jan 12, 2012

Dfense94;4373119 said:
Failure in Cleveland? He was the last team to take that team to the playoffs at 11-5, while the owner was trying to move the team.

How many of the other great coaches (Landry/Walsh/Lombardi/etc) won multiple Super Bowls with different QB's?

36-44 overall record. 5-11 his last season before he got fired.

Yes. A failure in Cleveland.

I never said he had to win multiple Super Bowls with different QBs. I said he has to do more than be a failure and get fired when he doesn't have Tom Brady.

Robert_California · Jan 12, 2012

Has anyone made a top 5 list yet?

Walsh
Shula
Noll
Lombardi
Brown

Does Bellichick get in that group?

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

UVAwahoos;4373124 said:
Parcells did.

Parcells never stayed in one place long enough to warrant serious consideration. To be a great coach, you can't get burnt out every four years.

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

Risen Star;4373126 said:
36-44 overall record. 5-11 his last season before he got fired.

Yes. A failure in Cleveland.

I never said he had to win multiple Super Bowls with different QBs. I said he has to do more than be a failure and get fired when he doesn't have Tom Brady.

You're not taking into consideration that he was working for a moribound franchise who's main objective at the time was to relocate. Modell was bankrupt and wasn't giving BB anything to work with.

Risen Star · Jan 12, 2012

Dfense94;4373129 said:
Parcells never stayed in one place long enough to warrant serious consideration. To be a great coach, you can't get burnt out every four years.

I disagree. It's more impressive to me when you move around and build with different characters than it is to stick in one spot where you have it good and run up numbers. It shows that you are the one common denominator to success.

It's why I'd never lump Belichick in with the greatest of the greats until he shows this same ability. I'd bet money he retires when Brady does.

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

Robert_California;4373127 said:
Has anyone made a top 5 list yet?

Walsh
Shula
Noll
Lombardi
Brown

Does Bellichick get in that group?

Yep. Directly under Walsh.

Risen Star · Jan 12, 2012

Dfense94;4373134 said:
You're not taking into consideration that he was working for a moribound franchise who's main objective at the time was to relocate. Modell was bankrupt and wasn't giving BB anything to work with.

I'm taking into consideration his results. Not excuses. The GOAT failed in Cleveland and had to be fired. That's reality.

He also started off with similar failure in New England until a timely injury forced his hand and Brady got on the field. Then he suddenly became the smartest guy on the planet.

That's an accurate description of his entire head coaching career.

Now show me where any of the other candidates for greatest coach of all time were so reliant on one player for all their success. And don't give me Jimmy Johnson, because no historian would consider him a candidate.

Dfense94 · Jan 12, 2012

Risen Star;4373135 said:
I disagree. It's more impressive to me when you move around and build with different characters than it is to stick in one spot where you have it good and run up numbers. It shows that you are the one common denominator to success.

lol okay. You can have that opinion. But I guarantee if you were an owner, or a fan of a specific team, you'd want a coach who was going to stick with your franchise for years and sustain greatness than one who was going to have a moderate level of success before calling it quits after 3-5 years.

How long until Belichick is considered the greatest ever?

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