Help me understand

NoLuv4Jerry · Apr 30, 2013

I have been a big critic of Jerry Jones. The results speak for themselves. But as I read review after review and read post after post on this board...a common thread exists. The Cowboys did not draft OL and DL in the middle rounds so the holes we had prior to the draft still exist.

Here is my problem with this line of thinking. Didn't we draft a DL with our 3rd round pick last year? So because he did NOT get on the field much last year...he already should be "drafted" over? Don't we have Ware and Spencer on very lucrative contracts. Hasn't it been pretty obvious that the team expects to retain Ratliff and we still have Hatcher? Don't we also have a couple of young DL that the team has indicated they like (Lissemore and the other guy slips my mind). So my point is....had we drafted a DL in the 3rd or 4th round of this year...the act of doing this would alleviate all the angst I am reading? Never mind the fact that we drafted one in the 3rd round last year...and it is quite possible that there were not any 3rd or 4th rounders this year...that are any better than the young guys we already got. So I am confused as to why using a mid round pick on a DL would make everyone feel "better" about our DL situation. To be candid...have not seen many mid round rookie DL solve the DL issues of an aspiring playoff team.

As for the OL...we used a top 10 pick on a LT 2 years ago. We used a 4th round pick on Arkin a couple of years ago. We all thought he needed time to get stronger...and this year will put up or shut up time for him. We gave Ron Leary the biggest bonus any undrafted free agent got last year...and we had a 3rd round grade on him. We used a 1st round pick on an OL this year. We signed 2 OL in free agency last year. We are trying to get Free to re-structure...if he does not cooperate, it sounds like he will be cut AND we have had talks with Winston. So that means we have a 1st round rookie C...a 1st round LT.....a RT that most would be ok with if he takes a pay cut...else we will bring in a free agent. And we have the "coveted" mid round young interior OL (Arkin and Leary). So again..what rookie mid round interior OL was going to quiet all of the noise I am reading/hearing?

Like I said...I have been very vocal about my angst with Jerry Jones. But you only have 1 first round pick every year...and 2 out of the last 3 years have been spent on OL. And complaining that we did not throw MORE picks at OL is people assuming the available mid round rookie OL were better than the young ones we ALREADY have and have spent time developing.

So I am just saying...think before you bark. Truly ask youself if there was some OL or DL in the 3rd round that would make either side of our line better next year.

Lastly, I hear all of the noise about a 2nd rounder on a TE. And the noise is justified based on our track record. So Garrett and company(that includes Witten)...have to be receptive to the gradual handing over the torch. Else, spending a 2nd rounder on him will be as pointless as it was when we spent it on Bennett!

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

Very good post, finally some real logic to the situation.

The one thing I would add, about Crawford, the DE we drafted last year. It isn't like he never saw the field, he got playing time in all 16 games last year according to NFL.com, and had 20 tackles.

slick325 · Apr 30, 2013

bbailey423;5072677 said:
I have been a big critic of Jerry Jones. The results speak for themselves. But as I read review after review and read post after post on this board...a common thread exists. The Cowboys did not draft OL and DL in the middle rounds so the holes we had prior to the draft still exist.

Here is my problem with this line of thinking. Didn't we draft a DL with our 3rd round pick last year? So because he did NOT get on the field much last year...he already should be "drafted" over? Don't we have Ware and Spencer on very lucrative contracts. Hasn't it been pretty obvious that the team expects to retain Ratliff and we still have Hatcher? Don't we also have a couple of young DL that the team has indicated they like (Lissemore and the other guy slips my mind). So my point is....had we drafted a DL in the 3rd or 4th round of this year...the act of doing this would alleviate all the angst I am reading? Never mind the fact that we drafted one in the 3rd round last year...and it is quite possible that there were not any 3rd or 4th rounders this year...that are any better than the young guys we already got. So I am confused as to why using a mid round pick on a DL would make everyone feel "better" about our DL situation. To be candid...have not seen many mid round rookie DL solve the DL issues of an aspiring playoff team.

As for the OL...we used a top 10 pick on a LT 2 years ago. We used a 4th round pick on Arkin a couple of years ago. We all thought he needed time to get stronger...and this year will put up or shut up time for him. We gave Ron Leary the biggest bonus any undrafted free agent got last year...and we had a 3rd round grade on him. We used a 1st round pick on an OL this year. We signed 2 OL in free agency last year. We are trying to get Free to re-structure...if he does not cooperate, it sounds like he will be cut AND we have had talks with Winston. So that means we have a 1st round rookie C...a 1st round LT.....a RT that most would be ok with if he takes a pay cut...else we will bring in a free agent. And we have the "coveted" mid round young interior OL (Arkin and Leary). So again..what rookie mid round interior OL was going to quiet all of the noise I am reading/hearing?

Like I said...I have been very vocal about my angst with Jerry Jones. But you only have 1 first round pick every year...and 2 out of the last 3 years have been spent on OL. And complaining that we did not throw MORE picks at OL is people assuming the available mid round rookie OL were better than the young ones we ALREADY have and have spent time developing.

So I am just saying...think before you bark. Truly ask youself if there was some OL or DL in the 3rd round that would make either side of our line better next year.

Lastly, I hear all of the noise about a 2nd rounder on a TE. And the noise is justified based on our track record. So Garrett and company(that includes Witten)...have to be receptive to the gradual handing over the torch. Else, spending a 2nd rounder on him will be as pointless as it was when we spent it on Bennett!

Fantastic post! :bow:

Tobal · Apr 30, 2013

I'm really torn on this.... I wanted the 1st three picks to weigh over 1000 lbs.... I have wavered on the NEED of Dline, I have settle for I felt and still feel this team needs a 1 Tech.

I've been begging for a center because that seemed like the biggest thing we needed. Check

I feel like we have good skill position players so taking a TE second floored me, then we drafted a project safety (we have 2) and a one dimensional WR and it felt like I was getting kicked in the ribs..... As this is happening The Giants and Eagles are drafting lineman (it feels worse that it probably is)

After relaxing and some drinking I get what they are doing, I'm not sure I buy in fully, but I'm hopeful... I RT would make me feel better though

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

Tobal;5072704 said:
I'm really torn on this.... I wanted the 1st three picks to weigh over 1000 lbs.... I have wavered on the NEED of Dline, I have settle for I felt and still feel this team needs a 1 Tech.

He might or might not fully develop. But Crawford is a PERFECT fit for the 1-Tech in the Tampa 2 defense. He was drafted as a super athletic pass rushing demon.

NoLuv4Jerry · Apr 30, 2013

Tobal;5072704 said:
I'm really torn on this.... I wanted the 1st three picks to weigh over 1000 lbs.... I have wavered on the NEED of Dline, I have settle for I felt and still feel this team needs a 1 Tech.

I've been begging for a center because that seemed like the biggest thing we needed. Check

I feel like we have good skill position players so taking a TE second floored me, then we drafted a project safety (we have 2) and a one dimensional WR and it felt like I was getting kicked in the ribs..... As this is happening The Giants and Eagles are drafting lineman (it feels worse that it probably is)

After relaxing and some drinking I get what they are doing, I'm not sure I buy in fully, but I'm hopeful... I RT would make me feel better though

Here is what I will say....from MANY accounts...we got good football players...maybe not where some people think our needs are...but we got good football players. We are one of like only 2 or 3 teams that got 5 of Mike Maycoks top 100 players...same with Mel Kiper...we got 5 of his top 100. Had we drafted another Robert Brewster in the 3rd round...everyone would have been happy because we apparently filled a need. But again...we saw how that worked out with Brewster. So I am going to assume the talent that was available on the OL/DL at the time we were on the clock did not justify making the pick...because again...the guys we did pick appear to be players. And picking those guys will help us avoid staying in the Miles Austin, Orlando Scandrick business if these guys show they are not worth what they are slated to make after the upcoming year. Getting them off the books could clear some cap room to sign some proven REAL help on the OL/DL...as opposed to drafting someone in the middle rounds that comes with question marks.

I personally am glad that Ogletree is gone. When you consider all the attention Dez/Miles/Witten draw...the 3rd WR in Dallas should have a field day. Laurent Robinson did. Ogletree did not. So the 3rd WR in Dallas is key...and sounds like we filled the hole. Like him or hate him...we missed MartyB last year...and it sounds like we have found his replacement. Clearly Felix Jones was not the answer when Murray missed games the last coulple of years..and it appears we have fixed that problem. Having the Center in the lap of our QB right after the snap has been an issue...and it appears we have fixed that problem. So we ARE fixing some of the holes on this team...unfortunatley we have a lot...so it will take another solid draft/off season. Having more cap space will help.

Idgit · Apr 30, 2013

This is exactly how I feel about it. There are 9-10 OL spots on your roster. Ideally, you have at least 7 guys who are legitimate NFL quality players, and a couple of slots devoted to developing players you hope can become starters and represent a value to you in terms of your salary cap down the road. Our issue on the OL has been with not having enough starting-quality players ready immediately. Part of that was due to injury last season (Costa, and Bernadeau early). But we've got guys we like at Parnell and Leary already, so it's really a matter of filling Dockery's roster spot, and then upgrading a player like Arkin or Kowolski if you can readily do it. If you eventually replace Free, you'd like to do it with a player capable of starting since you'd otherwise only have two starting-quality OTs on your roster. Not a position where you want to be developing someone behind the scenes.

On DL, you've got veterans at all of your starting positions, and role players in Lisemore and Crawford that the team is high on. And you have Brent somewhere in the background. If you're adding someone, it's probably going to be a guy you can confidently have step in for either Spencer or Ratliff or Hatcher if they walk or are let go next offseason. You're not likely to find that guy below round 3 of the NFL draft. You're better off either getting a young veteran (Okoye) in VFA, or devoting significant resources to sign *and* draft a starter at that position next offseason. Either way, plugging another 4th round developmental player into your roster there doesn't help you all that much. Especially when you can get a key roll player to fill Jenkins roster spot at CB or Felix's spot at RB and/or add a quality ST player to the bottom of your roster who's going to contribute immediately.

The key is adding players who represent clear upgrades to the talent you've already got on your roster. It's not accumulating 15 players who might all be very good some day at one position group. I understand the temptation to carpet bomb a problem position, but it's just a really inefficient use of extremely limited resources. I'm glad we didn't do it along either line if a player we were sure could help us wasn't available.

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

Idgit;5072731 said:
This is exactly how I feel about it. There are 9-10 OL spots on your roster. Ideally, you have at least 7 guys who are legitimate NFL quality players, and a couple of slots devoted to developing players you hope can become starters and represent a value to you in terms of your salary cap down the road. Our issue on the OL has been with not having enough starting-quality players ready immediately. Part of that was due to injury last season (Costa, and Bernadeau early). But we've got guys we like at Parnell and Leary already, so it's really a matter of filling Dockery's roster spot, and then upgrading a player like Arkin or Kowolski if you can readily do it. If you eventually replace Free, you'd like to do it with a player capable of starting since you'd otherwise only have two starting-quality OTs on your roster. Not a position where you want to be developing someone behind the scenes.

On DL, you've got veterans at all of your starting positions, and role players in Lisemore and Crawford that the team is high on. And you have Brent somewhere in the background. If you're adding someone, it's probably going to be a guy you can confidently have step in for either Spencer or Ratliff or Hatcher if they walk or are let go next offseason. You're not likely to find that guy below round 3 of the NFL draft. You're better off either getting a young veteran (Okoye) in VFA, or devoting significant resources to sign *and* draft a starter at that position next offseason. Either way, plugging another 4th round developmental player into your roster there doesn't help you all that much. Especially when you can get a key roll player to fill Jenkins roster spot at CB or Felix's spot at RB and/or add a quality ST player to the bottom of your roster who's going to contribute immediately.

The key is adding players who represent clear upgrades to the talent you've already got on your roster. It's not accumulating 15 players who might all be very good some day at one position group. I understand the temptation to carpet bomb a problem position, but it's just a really inefficient use of extremely limited resources. I'm glad we didn't do it along either line if a player we were sure could help us wasn't available.

Couldn't have put it better myself.

Clabo/Winston are not going to be brought in, till Free makes his mind up, or the team decides it can't wait for him to make up his mind, and just cuts him.

After that, we have:
Parnell
Smith
Bern
Livings
Costa
Fredrick
Leary
Cook

That is 9 of the 10 spots filled already. With guys like Arkin, Kowalski, Weems, and Simmons battling other non OL guys for the final spot. As we could easily decide to go with just 9 OL given guys like Fredrick, Bern, and Cook have all proven than they can play more than just 1 position.

StanleySpadowski · Apr 30, 2013

SMCowboy;5072742 said:
Couldn't have put it better myself.

Clabo/Winston are not going to be brought in, till Free makes his mind up, or the team decides it can't wait for him to make up his mind, and just cuts him.

After that, we have:
Parnell
Smith
Bern
Livings
Costa
Fredrick
Leary
Cook

That is 9 of the 10 spots filled already. With guys like Arkin, Kowalski, Weems, and Simmons battling other non OL guys for the final spot. As we could easily decide to go with just 9 OL given guys like Fredrick, Bern, and Cook have all proven than they can play more than just 1 position.

Many seriously overrate Leary. If the season started today, he'd be below Kowalski and probably Arkin and the team doesn't seem to be a fan of Arkin.

Idgit · Apr 30, 2013

StanleySpadowski;5072744 said:
Many seriously overrate Leary. If the season started today, he'd be below Kowalski and probably Arkin and the team doesn't seem to be a fan of Arkin.

That's probably true, but he's pretty definitely in one of those developmental roles already. And the team does seem to like him in that capacity. They were unlikely to add a late round pick just to bump him off the roster.

Yakuza Rich · Apr 30, 2013

I have little reason to think we should have drafted D-Line. If we were to draft a D-Lineman, there position would be to hopefully take over the starting spot in 2-3 years.

Kiffin's scheme really doesn't call for a 1-technique and I am not a fan of drafting a 1-tech space eater high. But even still, the real 'money' position is at the 3-tech and I honestly think we have underrated just how good Jason Hatcher has been the past 2 years. Of course, it's from a different scheme, but I don't see why he cannot continue to dominate...or even be more dominant in this scheme. And I'll take my chances with Lissemore and Crawford playing the other spot (I think Lissemore could flourish here, given that it's more of a speed and explosiveness position rather than a hand technique and 'read and react' position).

I'm not nutty about having 2 rookies starting on the O-line. However, I am concerned about the right tackle play. Romo's best play comes when his RT play is on point (2006, 2007, 2009, 2011 and second half of 2012). He came on super strong towards the end of last year which coincided with us removing Free from the full-time RT spot and alternating him and Parnell in there.

I think Parnell has some real potential, but once again we try to see if we can 'get by' at this crucial spot instead of doing our best to make sure our ducks are in a row and at least make it more difficult to mess the situation up. And I think if we are relying on Escobar to help out with the blocking, then we are going to face the same struggles we have had on offense...the inability for the Y-Receiver to catch something underneath and punish the defense with YAC.

And we still have to worry about the safety position. :banghead:

YR

riverside4 · Apr 30, 2013

StanleySpadowski;5072744 said:
Many seriously overrate Leary. If the season started today, he'd be below Kowalski and probably Arkin and the team doesn't seem to be a fan of Arkin.

Link please on this info you have.

NEODOG · Apr 30, 2013

Why take 4th round talent when prospects of the decade are available? I dont like last years Mo trade or what we missed on this year concerning the OL. We could've drafted OLine last year and DB this year. Both of those drafts had better options at our position to accomplish more without trading....

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

Yakuza Rich;5072765 said:
Kiffin's scheme really doesn't call for a 1-technique and I am not a fan of drafting a 1-tech space eater high. But even still, the real 'money' position is at the 3-tech and I honestly think we have underrated just how good Jason Hatcher has been the past 2 years. Of course, it's from a different scheme, but I don't see why he cannot continue to dominate...or even be more dominant in this scheme. And I'll take my chances with Lissemore and Crawford playing the other spot (I think Lissemore could flourish here, given that it's more of a speed and explosiveness position rather than a hand technique and 'read and react' position).

If by 1 technique, you mean a true nose tackle type, that weights in at 320+lbs. Then you are right, that type of player doesn't exist really in Monte Kiffen's scheme. When people have talked about 1 technique, I have always thought they where talking about the "Warren Sapp" position where he would alot of times lineup cockied over the center and shoot the gap.

AsthmaField · Apr 30, 2013

SMCowboy;5072784 said:
When people have talked about 1 technique, I have always thought they where talking about the "Warren Sapp" position where he would alot of times lineup cockied over the center and shoot the gap.

That is the 3-tech DT spot. That is what Warren Sapp played for Kiffen.

xwalker · Apr 30, 2013

SMCowboy;5072784 said:
If by 1 technique, you mean a true nose tackle type, that weights in at 320+lbs. Then you are right, that type of player doesn't exist really in Monte Kiffen's scheme. When people have talked about 1 technique, I have always thought they where talking about the "Warren Sapp" position where he would alot of times lineup cockied over the center and shoot the gap.

The 1-tech is aligned between te OG and OC. The 3-tech is aligned on the OG's outside shoulder. Sapp played the 3-tech.

Yakuza Rich · Apr 30, 2013

SMCowboy;5072784 said:
If by 1 technique, you mean a true nose tackle type, that weights in at 320+lbs. Then you are right, that type of player doesn't exist really in Monte Kiffen's scheme. When people have talked about 1 technique, I have always thought they where talking about the "Warren Sapp" position where he would alot of times lineup cockied over the center and shoot the gap.

Kiffin's playbook clearly shows that he wants the D-Linemen to get upfield and wants to get after the QB.

Most people are confusing this with Zimmer's scheme and philosophy where Zimmer has said that they want to stop the run first and stop the run second...then go after the QB.

Sapp played the 3-tech. But, the guys opposite of him where not space eaters by any stretch. Guys like Booger McFarland had some 1-tech responsibilities, but they were mainly there to get upfield. The Lions do the same thing with Fairley and Suh.

YR

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

AsthmaField;5072796 said:
That is the 3-tech DT spot. That is what Warren Sapp played for Kiffen.

A 3-Technique, in an under shift. Which lined him up as a defacto nose tackle or 1 technique.

But you are correct that the true name is still a 3 technique. But, I wanted to assume that the people on this board where smart enough to understand, that a true 1 technique does not have a spot on a Monte Kiffen defense. And where just confused and where considering it a 1 technique, because that is where you actually saw him lined up most of the time.

jterrell · Apr 30, 2013

xwalker;5072801 said:
The 1-tech is aligned between te OG and OC. The 3-tech is aligned on the OG's outside shoulder. Sapp played the 3-tech.

this.

basic numbering system in football since 1960.

C is 0
G is 2 or 3... right for even numbers left for odd.

so 25 draw

is a draw play to the running back (2) through the 5 hole which is left tackle.

On defense 1 shades OC, 3 shades RG/RT.

That wide 9 crap in Philly was a terrible 3 yards outside the tackle DE technique that is basically like blitzing a safety off the corner.

SMCowboy · Apr 30, 2013

xwalker;5072801 said:
The 1-tech is aligned between te OG and OC. The 3-tech is aligned on the OG's outside shoulder. Sapp played the 3-tech.

Sapp played alot of 3 technique. But, there was also the "under shift" that Kiffen especially made famous. Where Sapp did play lined up cockied over the center.

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