Review of DEs on the current roster

casmith07 · Apr 6, 2014

This is why I'm all for Anthony Barr.

jobberone · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
I'm beginning to think that he would be the best fit.

Barr - Unlikely to be available. Is somewhat risky due to underdeveloped skill at the position (only played defense for 2 years)
Ealy - Seems like best fit is on the strong side
Crichton - Seems like best fit is on the strong side.

I don't know how Marinelli feels about short DEs. Most of the guys they've added have a lot of length. He had players with a lot of length in Chicago. Simeon Rice in Tampa Bay had excellent length.

Marinelli did apparently like Spencer; otherwise, I don't think the Cowboys would have Franchised him in 2013.

There is not much difference in length between Ford and Spencer:
Ford 6021, 32-7/8" arms

Spencer 6027, 32-5/8" arms

Spencer is 3/4" taller but his arms are 1/4" shorter.

I'm not too worried about Ford against the run because Marinelli does not seem to require the WDE to play much run defense. He didn't give Ware much responsibility against the run. Ware was usually free to crash inside or go upfield on the outside with a LB maintaining the edge in the event of a run. When Marinelli really wanted strong run defense from that position, he would bring in a guy like Wynn at 6-3, 285.

I don't know if they played it that way or Ware played it that way. Either way we got burned a lot with delayed handoffs running over the WDE. And Selvie was problematic against the run on the other side if I remember correctly. I think Selvie needs to rotate at WDE and right now Crawford and another one or two at SDE. Someone will have to rotate at WDE. A draftee, UDFA, FA, and/or one of that group will make some plays. I wouldn't be surprised if we find two at least. And Bass will contribute. I won't be surprised to see him and Crawford both rotate at SDE and the 3. I'm a strong believer of running those guys in and out for a few plays keeping them fresh.

17yearsandcounting · Apr 6, 2014

noshame said:
I think the group as a whole will look much better this season as Rod will cut them loose like he did the last game. Monty had the DL reading waaaay to much in a old school attempt to bend but not break. Plus the mass confusion didn't help either. I would like to add one early round pick to the DL and one to the OL and I will come out of this draft a happy camper(if there is such a thing).

Ahh yes, the famous cult of Marinelli. Who did he develop on Chicago that wasnt Henry Melton? What did he do in Detroit?

BigStar · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
It seems that they have a lot of DEs that project to the Strong Side. It would be good if the draft pick could be a super quick type player even if he's a bit on the smaller side.

To me, a guy like Ealy seems to be similar to guys they already have on the roster (i.e a bigger guy with length, but not as quick as some other the other DEs in the draft).

Agree. Being slow off the ball (snap) is not the trait I want in my pass rushers that's for sure.

Woods · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
I'm beginning to think that he would be the best fit.

Barr - Unlikely to be available. Is somewhat risky due to underdeveloped skill at the position (only played defense for 2 years)
Ealy - Seems like best fit is on the strong side
Crichton - Seems like best fit is on the strong side.

I don't know how Marinelli feels about short DEs. Most of the guys they've added have a lot of length. He had players with a lot of length in Chicago. Simeon Rice in Tampa Bay had excellent length.

Marinelli did apparently like Spencer; otherwise, I don't think the Cowboys would have Franchised him in 2013.

There is not much difference in length between Ford and Spencer:
Ford 6021, 32-7/8" arms

Spencer 6027, 32-5/8" arms

Spencer is 3/4" taller but his arms are 1/4" shorter.

I'm not too worried about Ford against the run because Marinelli does not seem to require the WDE to play much run defense. He didn't give Ware much responsibility against the run. Ware was usually free to crash inside or go upfield on the outside with a LB maintaining the edge in the event of a run. When Marinelli really wanted strong run defense from that position, he would bring in a guy like Wynn at 6-3, 285.

Nice analysis as usual X.

I am just not entirely sold on Ford. I'm thinking if there is not a WDE that we really like in the early rounds, let's just get the DT and SDE positions down this year. It's going to take 2 years to build this defense anyway.

If we can get another quality DT (or two) and a SDE we really do like, I'd prefer to take those positions and not reach for a WDE this year. Though I do agree it is a big hole on the DL. But let's say we can pick up a quality DT, SDE, a quality LB . . . then next year we focus on WDE and probably FS (unless we get lucky with Wilcox or one of the other young guys). Hopefully our Defense will be pretty much set (and young) in 2015. Plus, we can always use FA or pick up a couple more role players in 2015 too.

AmishCowboy · Apr 6, 2014

Tejano15 said:
Dee Ford, he's the guy I want, he is going to be better against the run then people think. Super quick, non stop motor, and a gym freak.

If Donald is not there, then yes!

AmishCowboy · Apr 6, 2014

davey999 said:
I doubt that there is a weaker group in the league...

Which is why I wanted Ayers, I know he's not a Pro Bowler, but better then this stuff

xwalker · Apr 6, 2014

vicjagger said:
Did I really see someone that weighs 230 on that list?

The Cowboys website is often wrong on weight when a play 1st comes to the team. They have yet to do weigh ins.

xwalker · Apr 6, 2014

Most people around here want to do exactly what the Cowboys have done for years which is to obtain stopgap veterans because they're heard of that players name. Then they wonder why they never develop enough players.

Most 4-3 teams carry 8 or 9 DL which would be 5 DE max.

Selvie, Mincey and Crawford seem like near-locks to make the team. That leaves 1 or 2 spots open. We assume that they'll draft one DE in the top 3 rounds which makes it 4 DEs on the roster. That might or might not leave 1 spot open. All of the other DEs currently on the roster are competing with a possible late round pick or UDFAs for at most 1 spot on the roster.

xwalker · Apr 6, 2014

casmith07 said:
This is why I'm all for Anthony Barr.

Yes, physically he's clearly better than all other options. There is obviously risk because he is not well developed from a football skills perspective, but there would be no chance of him making it to #16 if he were more developed.

xwalker · Apr 6, 2014

Woods said:
Nice analysis as usual X.

I am just not entirely sold on Ford. I'm thinking if there is not a WDE that we really like in the early rounds, let's just get the DT and SDE positions down this year. It's going to take 2 years to build this defense anyway.

If we can get another quality DT (or two) and a SDE we really do like, I'd prefer to take those positions and not reach for a WDE this year. Though I do agree it is a big hole on the DL. But let's say we can pick up a quality DT, SDE, a quality LB . . . then next year we focus on WDE and probably FS (unless we get lucky with Wilcox or one of the other young guys). Hopefully our Defense will be pretty much set (and young) in 2015. Plus, we can always use FA or pick up a couple more role players in 2015 too.

I agree. They shouldn't force a pick this year. They have way to many holes to fill. Just get the best possible players. Hopefully, they sort things out this season and in next years draft and free agency they can consider being more specific in filling needs because there won't be as many.

tm1119 · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
Most people around here want to do exactly what the Cowboys have done for years which is to obtain stopgap veterans because they're heard of that players name. Then they wonder why they never develop enough players.

Most 4-3 teams carry 8 or 9 DL which would be 5 DE max.

Selvie, Mincey and Crawford seem like near-locks to make the team. That leaves 1 or 2 spots open. We assume that they'll draft one DE in the top 3 rounds which makes it 4 DEs on the roster. That might or might not leave 1 spot open. All of the other DEs currently on the roster are competing with a possible late round pick or UDFAs for at most 1 spot on the roster.

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining....You can try to spin it however you want, but that list is flat out not even close to enough talent. You can't just pretend that every player on the Cowboys roster is going to pan out with some miracle progression. You develop talent through the draft, not through cast offs, udfa's, and former arena league players. And Crawford may be a lock to make the team but you have no clue who or what he is. Or if he's even capable of playing 4-3 DE at all. So yeah, we are in really bad shape unless we use 2 of our first 4 picks on DE's or someone worth while gets cut post June 1st.

Star Guard_31 · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
Most people around here want to do exactly what the Cowboys have done for years which is to obtain stopgap veterans because they're heard of that players name. Then they wonder why they never develop enough players.

Most 4-3 teams carry 8 or 9 DL which would be 5 DE max.

Selvie, Mincey and Crawford seem like near-locks to make the team. That leaves 1 or 2 spots open. We assume that they'll draft one DE in the top 3 rounds which makes it 4 DEs on the roster. That might or might not leave 1 spot open. All of the other DEs currently on the roster are competing with a possible late round pick or UDFAs for at most 1 spot on the roster.

That reads as if the Cowboys are altogether avoiding stopgap solutions, thus somehow building the right way. I think the issue most people have is the quality of the stopgap. It's a tough sell to convince people that Jeremy Mincey -- a 30 year old backup DE who played in grand total of 10 total games last year -- is anything more than a stopgap. Especially when we could have had the player that played ahead of Mincey in the rotation for most of last season -- Robert Ayers -- for near identical money. When you combine this with the realization that Ayers is 2 years younger than Mincey and has performed better in recent memory then this becomes even more frustrating.

Even if the Cowboys felt Mincey was the superior player, there was no need to sign him as early as we did in free agency. They signed a 3rd or 4th tier free agent in the first wave of free agency. It's very likely he would still be on his couch right now had we not caught eager beaver syndrome. Shaun Phillips is a for more accomplished player with similar size and age concerns, and he just signed with a team last week.

xwalker · Apr 6, 2014

tm1119 said:
Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining....You can try to spin it however you want, but that list is flat out not even close to enough talent. You can't just pretend that every player on the Cowboys roster is going to pan out with some miracle progression. You develop talent through the draft, not through cast offs, udfa's, and former arena league players. And Crawford may be a lock to make the team but you have no clue who or what he is. Or if he's even capable of playing 4-3 DE at all. So yeah, we are in really bad shape unless we use 2 of our first 4 picks on DE's or someone worth while gets cut post June 1st.

Selvie and Mincey have shown to be legit NFL players, just not Star players. Many 4-3 teams only carry 4 DEs. We all assume that they will draft a DE in the early rounds. That makes 3 DEs with 4 or 5 spots available. That leaves Crawford plus 5 other guys competing with a late round pick or UDFAs for 1 or maybe 2 spots.

They could have kept Ware and still probably had about the same Win/Loss record that they're likely to have anyway. Maybe they win 1 extra game. Ware would have taken a spot that would otherwise go to a young player that might develop with some experience. If they had kept Ware, then at this time next year they're in worst shape than if they didn't keep him. By cutting him, they will have the 12.25M that they didn't spend by keeping him available for 2015. They will also have given themselves and extra spot for a young player which translates into a higher probability of developing a young player for 2015.

You appear to want them to force the issue of talent at DE for the 2014 season. Why? That's been the Jerry method for years and it has not worked.

The Cowboys finally appear to be doing what gets other teams from losing records or 8-8 to being contenders. That is taking a big picture, multiple year view of the situation.

The primary goal of the 2014 season should be to develop talent and scheme knowledge in order to put themselves into contention for 2015. Expecting to resolve all issue now is unrealistic.

noshame · Apr 6, 2014

17yearsandcounting said:
Ahh yes, the famous cult of Marinelli. Who did he develop on Chicago that wasnt Henry Melton? What did he do in Detroit?

It has little to do with Rod and all about style of play, I see with you it's the famous cult of no comprehension. there is a lot of that going around here.

Star Guard_31 · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
Selvie and Mincey have shown to be legit NFL players, just not Star players. Many 4-3 teams only carry 4 DEs. We all assume that they will draft a DE in the early rounds. That makes 3 DEs with 4 or 5 spots available. That leaves Crawford plus 5 other guys competing with a late round pick or UDFAs for 1 or maybe 2 spots.

They could have kept Ware and still probably had about the same Win/Loss record that they're likely to have anyway. Maybe they win 1 extra game. Ware would have taken a spot that would otherwise go to a young player that might develop with some experience. If they had kept Ware, then at this time next year they're in worst shape than if they didn't keep him. By cutting him, they will have the 12.25M that they didn't spend by keeping him available for 2015. They will also have given themselves and extra spot for a young player which translates into a higher probability of developing a young player for 2015.

So keeping 31 year old DeMarcus Ware would have cost them a roster spot and prevented them from developing a young player but signing 30 year old Jeremy Mincey doesn't?

tm1119 · Apr 6, 2014

xwalker said:
Selvie and Mincey have shown to be legit NFL players, just not Star players. Many 4-3 teams only carry 4 DEs. We all assume that they will draft a DE in the early rounds. That makes 3 DEs with 4 or 5 spots available. That leaves Crawford plus 5 other guys competing with a late round pick or UDFAs for 1 or maybe 2 spots.

They could have kept Ware and still probably had about the same Win/Loss record that they're likely to have anyway. Maybe they win 1 extra game. Ware would have taken a spot that would otherwise go to a young player that might develop with some experience. If they had kept Ware, then at this time next year they're in worst shape than if they didn't keep him. By cutting him, they will have the 12.25M that they didn't spend by keeping him available for 2015. They will also have given themselves and extra spot for a young player which translates into a higher probability of developing a young player for 2015.

You appear to want them to force the issue of talent at DE for the 2014 season. Why? That's been the Jerry method for years and it has not worked.

The Cowboys finally appear to be doing what gets other teams from losing records or 8-8 to being contenders. That is taking a big picture, multiple year view of the situation.

The primary goal of the 2014 season should be to develop talent and scheme knowledge in order to put themselves into contention for 2015. Expecting to resolve all issue now is unrealistic.

There is no talent at DE currently on this roster. You keep talking like we are the Jaguars with no hope to win the division when that's far from the case. I don't like to say this often, but Jerry is right. You don't rebuild with a very expensive QB approaching the end of his career. We follow you're plan and the D will be rebuilt in 2 years right in time to start looking for a new franchise QB. That will work out just great.....

And there were plenty of options in FA that would have helped without hurting the cap or long term development. I didn't want to sign Allen or keep Ware at his price, but we could have done something other than Mincey to improve the DE spot. But god forbid we stop the development of Ceaser Rayford or Martez Wilson. That would just be a tragedy. Now Jerry backed himself into a corner of having to take a DE in the 1st which I would bet a lot of $ he's going to do.

theSHOW · Apr 6, 2014

Beast_from_East said:
Yep, our DEs are basically NFL Europa talent level.

Easily the worst group of DEs in the league. Not sure how we are going to be competitive against the good passing teams with virtually no pass rush from the edges.

Some of our "fans' are NFL Europa level also.

theSHOW · Apr 6, 2014

BPA and if that means a corner so be it. This draft is loaded with guards tackles and wrs. Run in 2 units on the dline we are pretty good as we stand. looking for 2 more from the draft to the mix.

casmith07 · Apr 6, 2014

Star Guard_31 said:
So keeping 31 year old DeMarcus Ware would have cost them a roster spot and prevented them from developing a young player but signing 30 year old Jeremy Mincey doesn't?

Does Mincey count $12.25M against this years cap and $17M next year?

You guys are unbelievable.

Review of DEs on the current roster

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