Thoughts on the safety position Church vs Wilcox

It seems like there's still a misconception amongst a lot of fans that it's not that hard to find "ball hawking" tackling machines for safeties.

Look around the league. How many safeties are truly "great"? How many are legit game-changers? How many are serviceable? How many are mediocre?

We're not that bad off with Church and Wilcox.

All imho....

Safety overall is below average.
Both Church and Wilcox have fans here and that's OK.
They are "our" guys and should have fans.

But neither is in the top half of starting safeties.

Wilcox has a lot more upside and he is the better athlete.
Church is much better at reading plays and playing smart football.

Both guys will hit you.
But neither guy is a centerfielder type and both guys can whiff going for the big hit.

If you put Wilcox next to a legit centerfielder type and let him freelance I think he could be a poor man's troy polamalu.
I think he'd make a lot of big plays at the expense of the whiff on occasion.

Church to me is the prototype 3rd safety. He is versatile and smart and will get you through games... but he is just not a playmaker.

I'd love to see Dallas use a high pick on a safety evaluated by this group under McClay. I think that guy could get to Pro Bowls... but reality is the safety position has been soft these last few drafts so they've been over-drafted.

Never understood why Barry Church get so much flack on here? One of the better defenders on our team and people call him a backup for most NFL teams. You guys act like ball hawk safeties grow on trees

The Quest for Six said:

The safety position on this team is average at best, and out of the two starters, Wilcox has a little upside but, Church is a backup at best on most teams,....

Click to expand...

I totally disagree on Church. He is undervalued here.

Proximo said:

It seems like there's still a misconception amongst a lot of fans that it's not that hard to find "ball hawking" tackling machines for safeties.

Look around the league. How many safeties are truly "great"? How many are legit game-changers? How many are serviceable? How many are mediocre?

We're not that bad off with Church and Wilcox.

Click to expand...

I can think of two safeties in the league right now that I would call great. Maybe just Earl Thomas.

theranchsucks said:

Who do you like more. If you could only keep one, which would it be. Obviously before last season it would have been Church 10 times out of 10 but I thought Wilcox did a great job. He was usual good at being the last guy to count on to make a stop on a big run, his coverage was pretty decent even though I don't agree with the safties always playing so far off all the time. Church is solid but his range in coverage is suspect but he does make up for that with his vision and instincts. I don't know, to me it's almost a toss up but I really just wanted to get everyone else opinion.

Click to expand...

Church is an assignment-sound football player. He doesn't miss many tackles (with a few notable exceptions) and is rarely out of position. Go back and look at the times he actually gets beat and you won't find many examples. He doesn't have speed (which kept him from getting drafted) but has a great understanding of the game.

Wilcox lacks what Church has. He relies a lot on his power and speed, but doesn't always make the right choice, leaving him out of position, both in coverage and to make tackles. His physical attributes give him the upside that Church doesn't have, but he's not as good of a player right now.

It would be great to have Pro Bowl ballhawks at both positions, but both of these players are serviceable, with Church being slightly more than that and Wilcox having the potential to become more than that.

Our saftey position has gotten a loy better compared to the past 6 or 7 years. We went from always having 2 replacement level players (close to being out of the league) as starters to now having 2 borderline starters (close to being bench players) as starters. This might seem like a joke but its actually a huge upgrade lol

Proximo said:

It seems like there's still a misconception amongst a lot of fans that it's not that hard to find "ball hawking" tackling machines for safeties.

Look around the league. How many safeties are truly "great"? How many are legit game-changers? How many are serviceable? How many are mediocre?

We're not that bad off with Church and Wilcox.

Click to expand...

There is a lot of truth to this.
But there is also a lot of truth to the fact the best two safeties in football in 2014 met in the Super Bowl.

Having a great safety is about like having a franchise QB. It makes everyone on that side of the ball's job much easier.

Our metrics for safeties are really poor. And the metrics for players around them are actually better but not good.
Plus safety play would boost our backers and our CB.

But they don't grow on trees and you can't expect to get them cheap in free agency.
A lot of teams have taken to drafting them in round 1.
The value they have is being recognized.

Church and Wilcox are going to surprise people this year.

Two words: Greg Hardy

If Church and Wilcox only have to react off the QB's first or 2nd read, they're going to make plays -- lots of them.

I'd still like a 3rd safety who can start in a pinch. But we seem to be content with special teamers as back-ups at safety.

I see us eventually moving Wilcox to SS and picking a ball-hawk FS

THIS

CyberB0b said:

I think some guys like @Bluestang and @FuzzyLumpkins disagreed with your assessment in that thread.

Click to expand...

1st I'll credit nflbreakdowns for the gif, they are putting something out there I've always wanted to do but I don't have the time to do it.



This is the same exact play that Desean Jackson scored on in the 1st Qtr, but this play was in the 3rd Qtr.

A 47 yd gain because your FS doesn't understand angles and lacks the instincts to play the position. It's a good thing Scandrick had the speed to close on Garcon from the other side of the field.

If you wanted to give Wilcox a pass on the first play that allowed a TD because the Cowboys got caught in a blitz that's fine...but what is the excuse this time?

Church is the better (and generally underrated) player, but Wilcox has more natural ability. Wilcox does a great job when the play is in front of him. He's got range, and he tackles well generally when he's coming down the line of scrimmage and in open field. He still takes some bad angles and is slow to recognize at times.

Church is a solid player and the second best DB in our backfield. He's just a bit limited in what he can do. But on top of being one of the defensive captains, you'll hear opposing team OCs talking about him from time to time in the pre game press conference tidbits. Our fans are just hard on him because of his lowly draft status, the fact that he started as a ST player, the fact that they didn't like his original contract extension, and the fact that our pressure is not good so it makes the whole back end of the defense look suspect.

StarBoyz83 said:

Church is a better tackler and better in coverage. But wilcox is getting better and i love his toughness. Not afraid to get in a shoving match. lol. You need that on defense. But both are ss types. We need a true fs.

Click to expand...

No he is not. Them being afraid to play him at the deep middle should tell you all you need about his 'skills.' He is slow and has issues getting to the sideline out of cover 2 even.

Wilcox became the full time FS and our big play % dropped dramatically.

I like Church on the roster. He is a marginal starter because you can gameplan his lack of range. As a backup, he is superb. Intelligent, physical, consistent. He is just slow.

Bluestang said:

1st I'll credit nflbreakdowns for the gif, they are putting something out there I've always wanted to do but I don't have the time to do it.

This is the same exact play that Desean Jackson scored on in the 1st Qtr, but this play was in the 3rd Qtr.

A 47 yd gain because your FS doesn't understand angles and lacks the instincts to play the position. It's a good thing Scandrick had the speed to close on Garcon from the other side of the field.

If you wanted to give Wilcox a pass on the first play that allowed a TD because the Cowboys got caught in a blitz that's fine...but what is the excuse this time?

Click to expand...

No one is arguing that he is obviously learning the position and struggles because of it. For all of that anecdote brings, our big plays went way down from worst to league average.

FuzzyLumpkins said:

No one is arguing that he is obviously learning the position and struggles because of it. For all of that anecdote brings, our big plays went way down from worst to league average.

Click to expand...

I think that particular stat had more to do with a number of things than just Wilcox playing single high.

We've been missing a true cover safety since Darren Woodsen.

Neither Wilcox nor Church are FS. And this draft ain't exactly filled with must get safety prospects either

Bluestang said:

I think that particular stat had more to do with a number of things than just Wilcox playing single high.

Click to expand...

Sure. Scandrick and to a lesser extent Moore playing well had a lot to do with it. Carr and our LB had very little to do with it. Carter got some picks but he struggled mightily with routes run behind him. Outside of that fantastic pick against Tennessee McClain was plodding in the second halves of games. Durant had good sideline to sideline awareness but would get lost in space too particularly against TE. He was hurt most of the year. Hitchens was blowing plays as often as he was making them particularly when they first called on him. McClain missed a third of the games too.

Even on that play you highlghted, he overran it sure but I imagine Wilcox wasn't anticipating Carr and Moore getting completely wiped out like that. Wilcox had a ton of chances last season at FS as the last line of defense because our underneath coverage was absolutely putrid. Against Detroit, He had to make 4 such tackles including Megatron and having to beat two blockers but missed that one on Tate so everyone wanted to talk about that.

It's just like anything else, rate of success is what is key. Everyone fails. Is a 75% open field tackle rate when the rest of the defense has failed acceptable? I don't know frankly.

Anyway what stood out to me on that play was Lawrence speed running downfield. He almost caught up and the RB had a massive head start. Maybe better awareness but he has to stay home there on the edge a lot so I don't know.

Bluestang said:

1st I'll credit nflbreakdowns for the gif, they are putting something out there I've always wanted to do but I don't have the time to do it.

This is the same exact play that Desean Jackson scored on in the 1st Qtr, but this play was in the 3rd Qtr.

A 47 yd gain because your FS doesn't understand angles and lacks the instincts to play the position. It's a good thing Scandrick had the speed to close on Garcon from the other side of the field.

If you wanted to give Wilcox a pass on the first play that allowed a TD because the Cowboys got caught in a blitz that's fine...but what is the excuse this time?

Click to expand...

Is that #90 Lawerence also chasing him down? the player closest after Scandrick?? If so WOW!

Bluestang said:

1st I'll credit nflbreakdowns for the gif, they are putting something out there I've always wanted to do but I don't have the time to do it.

This is the same exact play that Desean Jackson scored on in the 1st Qtr, but this play was in the 3rd Qtr.

A 47 yd gain because your FS doesn't understand angles and lacks the instincts to play the position. It's a good thing Scandrick had the speed to close on Garcon from the other side of the field.

If you wanted to give Wilcox a pass on the first play that allowed a TD because the Cowboys got caught in a blitz that's fine...but what is the excuse this time?

Click to expand...

C'mon, this wasnt a 47 yard play solely because of Wilcox. You two corners lined up 10 yards off the ball so already you are surrendering 15 yards. Two linebackers who completely bite on the play action, there's your inside support. Just an all around bad defensive play.

Bluestang said:

1st I'll credit nflbreakdowns for the gif, they are putting something out there I've always wanted to do but I don't have the time to do it.

This is the same exact play that Desean Jackson scored on in the 1st Qtr, but this play was in the 3rd Qtr.

A 47 yd gain because your FS doesn't understand angles and lacks the instincts to play the position. It's a good thing Scandrick had the speed to close on Garcon from the other side of the field.

If you wanted to give Wilcox a pass on the first play that allowed a TD because the Cowboys got caught in a blitz that's fine...but what is the excuse this time?

Click to expand...

No, this is a good example of how fans don't understand angles and Safety play.

The natural reaction would have been for Wilcox to go straight at Garcon . The fact that Wilcox went to the outside of Garcon shows that he was coached to do that. Wilcox has to error on the side of overrunning it to the outside because there was no help outside. He is coached to force that back inside. Yes, an elite Safety might have been able to force it back inside and still get back to make the play, but this was not a mental error or an issue with "angles". If Wilcox goes straight at Garcon and misses, then it's an easy touchdown. Marinelli's scheme is based on limiting scoring even if it means giving up yardage. A gambling DC like Rob Ryan might coach Wilcox to go straight at Jackson in this play, but that's not how Marinelli coaches it.

Broaddus reviewed this play during the season and confirmed that in the coaches grades that Cam Lawrence #53 was at fault in that play, not Wilcox. In this scheme it's a big no-no for the LB (#53) to get trapped inside on this type of play.