4 and 12 record = Zeke

thunderpimp91 said:

That's not true at all. Every draft has superstars slip past the first round all together. We got one in dak in the 4th. Dez wasn't a top 5 pick, neither was anyone on this oline, romo, witten, Lee, etc. Even the other top RBs in the league aside from AP weren't top picks.

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Yeah but you don't get prospects of Zeke's caliber in that range though. That's not to say that a guy won't slip through the cracks like a Leveon Bell or a Demarco Murray but those guys weren't the prospects that Zeke was or AP or Todd Gurley.

rocyaice said:

Yeah but you don't get prospects of Zeke's caliber in that range though. That's not to say that a guy won't slip through the cracks like a Leveon Bell or a Demarco Murray but those guys weren't the prospects that Zeke was or AP or Todd Gurley.

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So leveon bell and demarco Murray aren't of similar caliber to Zeke? I was on the Zeke at 4 train all off season but even I think that's a stretch.

thunderpimp91 said:

So leveon bell and demarco Murray aren't of similar caliber to Zeke? I was on the Zeke at 4 train all off season but even I think that's a stretch.

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Of course they are. I'm saying coming out of college. Zeke when he came out of college was considered to be a top 5 back in this league. Leveon Ball and Demarco Murray were considered good backs who could potentially start in this league but not game changers like Zeke.

Zeke came into this league as the best blocking running back to ever entered the draft. Incredibly smart football IQ. Fast. Power.

Its like this year's draft. Wentz measurables were great. But Dak has proven he can play in this league and at a high level.

rocyaice said:

Of course they are. I'm saying coming out of college. Zeke when he came out of college was considered to be a top 5 back in this league. Leveon Ball and Demarco Murray were considered good backs who could potentially start in this league but not game changers like Zeke.

Zeke came into this league as the best blocking running back to ever entered the draft. Incredibly smart football IQ. Fast. Power.

Its like this year's draft. Wentz measurables were great. But Dak has proven he can play in this league and at a high level.

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I'll agree with what you're trying to say here, but if they perform at this level who cares how high they were ranked coming out? To go back to your original comment I think the scouting that allowed us to have great drafts for the last half decade has a lot more to do than getting Zeke alone. Having a high pick doesn't mean you will make the right pick.

rocyaice said:

Yeah but you don't get prospects of Zeke's caliber in that range though. That's not to say that a guy won't slip through the cracks like a Leveon Bell or a Demarco Murray but those guys weren't the prospects that Zeke was or AP or Todd Gurley.

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Bell is one of the most talented players in the league and makes Gurley look like Trent Richardson. If he wasn't such an idiot, his stats would back it up.

stasheroo said:

What's "stragedy"?

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I think he meant strateegery

The Cowboys have tried drafting the best player at their respective position with their first pick recently. Starting with Dez, then T. Smith, Claiborne, Frederick, Martin, B.Jones and finally Zeke. I think it's a good strategy because I believe the most important thing about draft picks are that they are quality as in they turn into quality starters especially during their rookie contract years.

It's not so simple.

How did both the Classic Cowboys and present Patriots produce over 16 consecutive winning seasons while their draft position was always in the bottom third of the league each and every one of those seasons?

The answer is that they had a system or formula for acquiring talent. They had a plan. They both knew what they wanted to be and acquired the talent applicable to their philosophy. They had methods of increasing their ability to get more value than their drafts represented. The Cowboys were the first to grade each player and use a computer to compile a score. The Patriots constantly traded for future picks and were very businesslike in their evaluation of veterans and their productivity in comparison to their salaries.

The Cowboys used a method of acquiring players with certain traits that they believed would form a more cohesive team. They drafted the "right kind of players" that were smart, productive in college, good citizens, former captains, guys who loved the game and worked hard.

We got Elliott because of a higher draft position but the other MVP candidate, Dak Prescott, was a compensation pick in the 4th round. That had nothing to do with league parity measures like draft position and salary caps. We have a 6th round CB that plays better than a great number of #1 picks at that position.

And how different would it be if you replace Elliott with Murray right now, based on their current productivity. Chances are, if the Cowboys had kept Murray then they would never have been 4-12, perhaps Romo doesn't even get hurt. That wouldn't change the Cowboys getting Prescott, as far as draft position is concerned. It would just be Murray instead of Elliott.

Now, this is just an example that it's not all about record and draft position, I hope nobody believed that I think the results would be the same, what we are seeing now is a special bond that is forming among players which would not be the same without Zeke. Nor would the Cowboys future at the position be the same.

Verdict said:

...We are doing great drafting. It would be nice to see us trade back in one of the rounds this year and get a pick that is likely to be higher next year if the situation is right to do that.

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Six or eight years ago I advocated doing exactly this on this forum...dubbing the notion "Trading it Forward." It was an active thread where most people opposed the idea. Glad to see others thinking similarly now.

Consider how Cleveland manipulated the Eagles in a trade this past draft.

To summarize the trade: in exchange for moving down 6 slots in the first round the Browns landed:
-An extra immediate 3rd round pick
-An extra future first round pick
-An extra future second.

And they still got to draft a guy at the 8th overall spot in round 1!

It leverages a powerful principal expressed in what Jaylon Smith's tweet today: "Patience is Power."

Teague31 said:

You either need to be an elite team or one building to be elite. Middle of the road is the worst possible scenario

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I don't know. Giants won 2 Super Bowls and were far from elite either times. Nor were they ever really building to be elite. It's not a route you want to really take but it's very hard to be elite. And really, there isn't many elite teams in any sport.

Special talent goes at the top for that reason.Good talent is there all through the draft
but rarely does decade talent fall off out the top.
People chant mantra's until life throws them a dogma buster.

Verdict said:

I am glad we had the 4 and 12 record last year

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I'm not. Never happy to see a season wasted. Granted, it worked out well for us this season, it doesn't make me glad what happened last season. Just makes me deal with it better.

People kind of forget that it isn't just the high first round draft pick, all the picks are high in every round. We were able to get a lot of key players but we picked before other teams had the opportunity. You get the cream of the crop in every round.

Good OP

T-RO said:

Six or eight years ago I advocated doing exactly this on this forum...dubbing the notion "Trading it Forward." It was an active thread where most people opposed the idea. Glad to see others thinking similarly now.

Consider how Cleveland manipulated the Eagles in a trade this past draft.

To summarize the trade: in exchange for moving down 6 slots in the first round the Browns landed:
-An extra immediate 3rd round pick
-An extra future first round pick
-An extra future second.

And they still got to draft a guy at the 8th overall spot in round 1!

It leverages a powerful principal expressed in what Jaylon Smith's tweet today: "Patience is Power."

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I have been a proponent of this strategy for years. I agree that not many were on our bandwagon but you were not alone. Years ago the cap hit at the very top was crippling but even then it was good to pick at the top. In a time where the top player gets a fraction of what they used to get it is a no brainer.

If they allowed us to pick first every year because just because we want to, would you pass up that opportunity. No, of course not, because it gives you a competitive advantage.

Blackspider214 said:

I don't know. Giants won 2 Super Bowls and were far from elite either times. Nor were they ever really building to be elite. It's not a route you want to really take but it's very hard to be elite. And really, there isn't many elite teams in any sport.

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Are you saying you would rather draft at the bottom of the round because that is where all the talent is? Of course not. That wouldn't make any sense.


Winning teams don't win because they pick at the bottom of the round, they win in spite of it.

Verdict said:

If the Giants had drafted Zeke it would appear that they would be the clear favorite to advance to the super bowl. That is what a high draft pick can do for you.

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Marginal. Their o line is no where as good as Cowboys.

Zeke would be bruised and battered by now well beyond what he is in Dallas.
And with Odell there do you think he wants to share spotlight.

Galian Beast said:

People kind of forget that it isn't just the high first round draft pick, all the picks are high in every round. We were able to get a lot of key players but we picked before other teams had the opportunity. You get the cream of the crop in every round.

Good OP

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That's right. It gives you a competitive advantage on every round. The player you target in that round is more likely to be there and if a player slips unexpectedly then you get one of the first cracks at drafting him.


Granted you have to draft wel, and that's not a given, but the players drafted higher in a round usually has fewer warts than the players drafted below them.

There will be 32 first round players drafted in each round. In most years there will not be more than 20 to 25 players with a first round grade. That is a significant handicap when you draft late in the round.

hipfake08 said:

Marginal. Their o line is no where as good as Cowboys.

Zeke would be bruised and battered by now well beyond what he is in Dallas.
And with Odell there do you think he wants to share spotlight.

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The Giant have zero running game. If their running game was at least average they would be a hell of a lot harder to beat.

hipfake08 said:

Marginal. Their o line is no where as good as Cowboys.

Zeke would be bruised and battered by now well beyond what he is in Dallas.
And with Odell there do you think he wants to share spotlight.

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Teams don't pass on talent because their stars don't want to share the spotlight. Do you really believe this would be the deciding factor on taking a player?

We took Zeke at #4 overall because we wouldn't risk taking him any later. If we had passed on Zeke he would have gone at #5 to the Ravens or Giants in a trade up. The Ravens were trying to trade up to #4 to get him but we passed because they wanted the same player we did.

Verdict said:

Are you saying you would rather draft at the bottom of the round because that is where all the talent is? Of course not. That wouldn't make any sense.


Winning teams don't win because they pick at the bottom of the round, they win in spite of it.

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There's a difference in being a winning team and being elite.