The nerve is officially firing***merged***

great.

all i have ever said is no one here has access to the day to day activities of what jaylon has been doing NOR his private medical records. that would mean, IN MY MIND, anyone googling and coming to certain conclusions is doing it for their own haha's.

to get upset you're right or wrong when you simply don't know - even now - is just funny to me.

iceberg said:

from your previous post:

however, by roughly knowing jaylon's rehab and the lack of a follow-up surgery (no obstruction for nerve regrowth), one can deductively figure out that jaylon probably did lie in the expected level of injury.

lie or didn't know?

then you say:

is it perfect, of course not, but even dr. cooper could not be totally sure - it is a nerve injury after all.

he can't be sure but since we're on month 16, jaylon lied. if his doctor can't be sure on his own given timeframe, how can we with far less info?

i could well be misreading what you're saying. i've done it before. but my base stance is that the doctor will give public info but medical records are private. you're gonna get the headline here, not the details.

i see people speculate on headlines or not much info all the time. kinda fun, sure. but again, trying to play doctor and make your own prognosis along the way? kinda stupid to me since you don't have the background info, you don't know how rehab is going day to day and a few twitter posts are simply not enough to make up for the lack of overall information.

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i dont know whether i wrote it badly or you read it badly.
it does not matter.
the point is that dr. cooper gave his analysis.
he also provided enough information that other MDs can guess where things are without jaylon's records.
also the same info is available on the web, although it is certain preferred if a MD interpreted it instead of non-MD.
but the info is out there.

just because we are on month 16 does not mean anyone lied.
it just means it did not follow the norm.
no big deal as long as the final result is good and knock on wood, it appears to look good right now.

furthermore, based on simple anatomy, it appears the foot drop should have gotten at least somewhat better before the toes can wiggle.
but we were told both at the same time.
it appears, though no 100% certainty, that the FO was holding out on us.

for what it is worth, some of us including both fuzz and me, think that the initial firing happened around sept/oct last year. not 100% but some level of connection.

iceberg said:

great.

all i have ever said is no one here has access to the day to day activities of what jaylon has been doing NOR his private medical records. that would mean, IN MY MIND, anyone googling and coming to certain conclusions is doing it for their own haha's.

to get upset you're right or wrong when you simply don't know - even now - is just funny to me.

Click to expand...

there are no certain conclusion - and that is even for jaylon's doctor with ALL the medical data.
you seem to forget the MDs on the boards said pretty much the same thing.
they would not over-extended their conclusion - note that everyone has said - there is no certainty in this.

iceberg said:

great.

all i have ever said is no one here has access to the day to day activities of what jaylon has been doing NOR his private medical records. that would mean, IN MY MIND, anyone googling and coming to certain conclusions is doing it for their own haha's.

to get upset you're right or wrong when you simply don't know - even now - is just funny to me.

Click to expand...

So you are not going to care unless his doctor says something and refuse to listen to anything anyone else says. How droll.

There are markers you can look for to help form an opinion such as the nerve exterior being intact, his ability to lift his foot, needing an AFO, or most recently his ability to wiggle his toes.

Have fun repeating your epistemological nonsense playing merchant of doubt though.

iceberg said:

from your previous post:

however, by roughly knowing jaylon's rehab and the lack of a follow-up surgery (no obstruction for nerve regrowth), one can deductively figure out that jaylon probably did lie in the expected level of injury.

lie or didn't know?

then you say:

is it perfect, of course not, but even dr. cooper could not be totally sure - it is a nerve injury after all.

he can't be sure but since we're on month 16, jaylon lied. if his doctor can't be sure on his own given timeframe, how can we with far less info?

i could well be misreading what you're saying. i've done it before. but my base stance is that the doctor will give public info but medical records are private. you're gonna get the headline here, not the details.

i see people speculate on headlines or not much info all the time. kinda fun, sure. but again, trying to play doctor and make your own prognosis along the way? kinda stupid to me since you don't have the background info, you don't know how rehab is going day to day and a few twitter posts are simply not enough to make up for the lack of overall information.

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oh, the use of the word 'lie' there means 'fall under'
no one is sure, there is no 100% sure here, even for jaylon's doctor.
there are projections based on prior data, which is what his doctor and others are basing the prognosis on.
jaylon's doctor has more info, but he already released enough info when he said stretched nerve for many to look up the results.

waldoputty said:

oh, the use of the word 'lie' there means 'fall under'
no one is sure, there is no 100% sure here, even for jaylon's doctor.
there are projections based on prior data, which is what his doctor and others are basing the prognosis on.
jaylon's doctor has more info, but he already released enough info when he said stretched nerve for many to look up the results.

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No one is ever completely sure about anything and if they are then you should view the zealot with skepticism. That is besides the point.

If he is not wearing a AFO to train, if he can lift his foot, and if he can wiggle his toes then you have enough information to make an informed opinion and you don't need to rely on an expert.

OF course if an expert disagrees then you look long and hard with a heavy dose of introspection but that is not what is going on here.

REally though this is just the type of mental gymnastics that ice goes through when he doesn't want to believe something. You see this type of thing quite often in political discourse.

It's also the reason why ice cannot talk to me because I have hammered his methods to the root, it makes him mad and he has trouble controlling himself. Just know that he is not ever going to admit that he sees what you are saying. You are not writing what he wants to read.

waldoputty said:

oh, the use of the word 'lie' there means 'fall under'
no one is sure, there is no 100% sure here, even for jaylon's doctor.
there are projections based on prior data, which is what his doctor and others are basing the prognosis on.
jaylon's doctor has more info, but he already released enough info when he said stretched nerve for many to look up the results.

Click to expand...

fair enough then i did misread that.

i don't follow all this because anything i could do here is speculation and i'd take it as such. i'm just guessing. what i find amazing are the people who are adamant they know one way or another based off what little public info we do have.

not been keeping up this off-season to know who is in which camp or why and i've been ignoring fuzzy since the fall of the political zone. i've only seen one post when i took him off ignore long enough to say "how cute" or something like that.

i'm sure we can *guess* at the timeframes but when people get upset? about being incorrect in their guesses? that's why i don't get.

not the speculation around it. that's kinda fun and a time killer in the off-season. but to get mad about right or wrong when either is a guess is just odd to me.

iceberg said:

fair enough then i did misread that.

i don't follow all this because anything i could do here is speculation and i'd take it as such. i'm just guessing. what i find amazing are the people who are adamant they know one way or another based off what little public info we do have.

not been keeping up this off-season to know who is in which camp or why and i've been ignoring fuzzy since the fall of the political zone. i've only seen one post when i took him off ignore long enough to say "how cute" or something like that.

i'm sure we can *guess* at the timeframes but when people get upset? about being incorrect in their guesses? that's why i don't get.

not the speculation around it. that's kinda fun and a time killer in the off-season. but to get mad about right or wrong when either is a guess is just odd to me.

Click to expand...

Actually, the fact dr. cooper said the nerve was 'pulled somewhat and not severed', which already allow others to look up the injury category.
The prognosis for that category roughly matched what dr. cooper said in terms of expecting a good recovery though no promises...
This is nerve regeneration and previous case data is about as good as you are going to get, which is far from certainty.

Remember, 1 year ago, we were all up in arms worrying if jaylon's nerve would EVER reconnect to the muscle again.
At that point, some of us, particularly Fuzz, spent a lot of time researching this.
That is why some of us really appreciated what Fuzz did because he spent hours or days researching this - time that we ourselves did not need to spend ourselves.

To Fuzz's credit, his reading of the medical literature was pretty good and roughly matched what the MDs on the board said, such as doc50.
With 2 PhD members of my family being some of the few nerve regeneration researchers in the world, I was lucky enough to get their opinion and get a separate 'verification' of some of the stuff Fuzz and others said.
That is why Fuzz and I wrote the most about this.
Of course Doc50 came in and was able to give his professional opinion, probably without needing much researching at all.
Obviously that leverages his education and god knows how many years of experience.

No one, not fuzz, not me, or anyone else who thought the recovery was going well thought it was a sure thing.
Now the MDs were more sure of themselves, but it is really difficult for any of us non-MDs to judge what the MDs know from experience.
Also some of the anti-Jaylon-pick guys were far more certain about how Jaylon would not recover, but that was probably more emotionally based.

As I wrote, it appears Fuzz's direct confrontation ways may have contributed so some of the entrenched opinions on the board.
However, when some started attacks doc50, i started putting people on 'ignore'.
Outside of this board, I doubt the good doc has been accused of pretending to be a MD - which is an actual crime btw.

iceberg said:

fair enough then i did misread that.

i don't follow all this because anything i could do here is speculation and i'd take it as such. i'm just guessing. what i find amazing are the people who are adamant they know one way or another based off what little public info we do have.

not been keeping up this off-season to know who is in which camp or why and i've been ignoring fuzzy since the fall of the political zone. i've only seen one post when i took him off ignore long enough to say "how cute" or something like that.

i'm sure we can *guess* at the timeframes but when people get upset? about being incorrect in their guesses? that's why i don't get.

not the speculation around it. that's kinda fun and a time killer in the off-season. but to get mad about right or wrong when either is a guess is just odd to me.

Click to expand...

You should look up false equivalence. You're equating the potential for each side being wrong as equal by ignoring all evidence as incomplete. Welcome to the world. We make decisions based on deductions and imperfect information.

You're basically saying that because you're ignorant of the facts surrounding his injury and ignorant of the medicine involved with his injury, that you can't be sure and therefore nobody else can be.

I think everyone grants that they cannot with 100% certainty tell you the status of Jaylon's injury. But they can evaluate all of the evidence we have available and with research/expertise provide a diagnosis with reasonable certainty. Reasonable certainty is not the same as complete ignorance which seems to be how you're pitching it. Can we look in Jaylon's foot? No. But we can listen to his doctor, we can listen to others who have suffered the same injury, we can look at actuarial data, and guess what, we'll come to a more accurate conclusion than someone who doesn't do those things.

Tl;dr Saying that someone who doesn't know anything and someone who doesn't know everything are on equal footing is baseless and a hilarious logical fallacy.

waldoputty said:

Actually, the fact dr. cooper said the nerve was 'pulled somewhat and not severed', which already allow others to look up the injury category.
The prognosis for that category roughly matched what dr. cooper said in terms of expecting a good recovery though no promises...
This is nerve regeneration and previous case data is about as good as you are going to get, which is far from certainty.

Remember, 1 year ago, we were all up in arms worrying if jaylon's nerve would EVER reconnect to the muscle again.
At that point, some of us, particularly Fuzz, spent a lot of time researching this.
That is why some of us really appreciated what Fuzz did because he spent hours or days researching this - time that we ourselves did not need to spend ourselves.

To Fuzz's credit, his reading of the medical literature was pretty good and roughly matched what the MDs on the board said, such as doc50.
With 2 PhD members of my family being some of the few nerve regeneration researchers in the world, I was lucky enough to get their opinion and get a separate 'verification' of some of the stuff Fuzz and others said.
That is why Fuzz and I wrote the most about this.
Of course Doc50 came in and was able to give his professional opinion, probably without needing much researching at all.
Obviously that leverages his education and god knows how many years of experience.

No one, not fuzz, not me, or anyone else who thought the recovery was going well thought it was a sure thing.
Now the MDs were more sure of themselves, but it is really how for any of us non-MDs to judge what the MDs know from experience.
Also some of the anti-Jaylon-pick guys were far more certain about how Jaylon would not recover, but that was probably more emotionally based.

Click to expand...

I always enjoyed your posts. I respect guys that research things they are curious about.

Seeing Jaylon Smith progress through camp will be fun. Hope we are careful with him during the PS. He will need to play, sure. But he needs to get used to the flow of the game again.

waldoputty said:

admit it, you secretly watch it with a smile on your face...
it is so bad you cannot stop watching...

Click to expand...

I would have only enjoyed it if Skip would have gotten up and beat the crap out of SA Smith... before then punching himself in the forehead and falling on the unconscious Smith doing a full suplex.

waldoputty said:

Actually, the fact dr. cooper said the nerve was 'pulled somewhat and not severed', which already allow others to look up the injury category.
The prognosis for that category roughly matched what dr. cooper said in terms of expecting a good recovery though no promises...
This is nerve regeneration and previous case data is about as good as you are going to get, which is far from certainty.

Remember, 1 year ago, we were all up in arms worrying if jaylon's nerve would EVER reconnect to the muscle again.
At that point, some of us, particularly Fuzz, spent a lot of time researching this.
That is why some of us really appreciated what Fuzz did because he spent hours or days researching this - time that we ourselves did not need to spend ourselves.

To Fuzz's credit, his reading of the medical literature was pretty good and roughly matched what the MDs on the board said, such as doc50.
With 2 PhD members of my family being some of the few nerve regeneration researchers in the world, I was lucky enough to get their opinion and get a separate 'verification' of some of the stuff Fuzz and others said.
That is why Fuzz and I wrote the most about this.
Of course Doc50 came in and was able to give his professional opinion, probably without needing much researching at all.
Obviously that leverages his education and god knows how many years of experience.

No one, not fuzz, not me, or anyone else who thought the recovery was going well thought it was a sure thing.
Now the MDs were more sure of themselves, but it is really difficult for any of us non-MDs to judge what the MDs know from experience.
Also some of the anti-Jaylon-pick guys were far more certain about how Jaylon would not recover, but that was probably more emotionally based.

Click to expand...

Okay, here's the deal. As some of you might remember, I was actually diagnosed with drop foot about three months ago. I'm happy to say I'm 99.9% recovered, as my issue was not nearly as severe as Jaylon's. But I will tell you this, if he is able to lift his toes, he isn't that far off. And when you get to that point, performing isn't really a problem, it's more of a nuisance than anything. He is going to dominate.

Bizwah said:

I always enjoyed your posts. I respect guys that research things they are curious about.

Seeing Jaylon Smith progress through camp will be fun. Hope we are careful with him during the PS. He will need to play, sure. But he needs to get used to the flow of the game again.

Click to expand...

Thanks.
As big fans, we should just be celebrating the progress, but lets not get our hopes all the way on the hype train yet.
I have to admit it does look good now, knock on wood.

Since they held him back from playing in the playoffs, I suspect that they have taken your concern very seriously.
That is probably despite whatever Jerry felt because he probably wanted to be vindicated for making the pick.

ckalch said:

We don't suck again!

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Oh we still suck. Nothing will change that.

AsthmaField said:

I would have only enjoyed it if Skip would have gotten up and beat the crap out of A Smith... before then punching himself in the forehead and falling on the unconscious Smith doing a full suplex.

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lol, i look at smith as an entertainer not a sport person.
his convolutions, however fake, is kind of entertaining to me, at least.
he is pretty successful in that as many of us ***** and moan about his comments and put his videos on the board...

it would be more entertaining if some cowboys player showed up and yelled at him...
remember the chrissy everett situation - when the QB pushed Rome on the Rome Show on TV and Rome looked scared and ****-faced?
That would benefit Smith's ratings even more

TheHerd said:

Oh we still suck. Nothing will change that.

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If Jaylon is 95% of his college self and we can get a good RDE, we would be really good, even without any DB help.
Question is if we can get the passrush.
I would be happy if we draft DEs/blitz LBS from rounds 1-4 or trade-up myself.

waldoputty said:

lol, i look at smith as an entertainer not a sport person.
his convolutions, however fake, is kind of entertaining to me, at least.
he is pretty successful in that as many of us ***** and moan about his comments and put his videos on the board...

it would be more entertaining if some cowboys player showed up and yelled at him...
remember the chrissy everett situation - when the QB pushed Rome on the Rome Show on TV and Rome looked scared and ****-faced?
That would benefit Smith's ratings even more

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No, you're right. I was more just making a joke. Low hanging fruit and all that.

He certainly gets people to listen. Of course a lot tune out and never come back as well. I imagine it is worse for Dallas fans than it is for any other fan base.

waldoputty said:

If Jaylon is 95% of his college self and we can get a good RDE, we would be really good, even without any DB help.
Question is if we can get the passrush.
I would be happy if we draft DEs/blitz LBS from rounds 1-4 or trade-up myself.

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I was just reacting to the attitude of this board.

TheHerd said:

I was just reacting to the attitude of this board.

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I got it bro.

TheHerd said:

I was just reacting to the attitude of this board.

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to be honest, i am still a pissed off fan.
i could smell the 'ongoing' jaylon recovery, and yet we did nothing in FA despite plenty of $ available.
if we nailed a good CB down during FA, we could have focused everything on the DL and the draft this year.
plus the piece of crap we signed at RT for 2M instead of getting a superior replacement for Free - and we knew he was retiring before FA.