YR's Pro Wrestling of the Day

timb2

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I predict she will be the female version of The Great Muta. She is Biadasz!!!! #2 move Flying Cross Armbar is wicked!!
 

Yakuza Rich

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The problem with the 90’s wrestling is that there was a war created between the two biggest companies and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose the war. So while it was fun and interesting to flip the channels, wrestling would have been better off in the end if they had Raw on Monday nights and Nitro on Tuesday nights.


What I enjoyed from the WWE in the 90’s is that they got themselves better in-ring talent that were unabashedly willing to put each other over. This was a far cry from 80’s wrestling where nobody would put over anybody that they thought they were on equal footing with. But in the WWE you had Austin, The Rock and Foley and you had three guys that had excellent attitudes in the locker room as well as being great workers and being great on the mic.


The problem I had with the Rock is that he started to become too funny and started to not put his opponents over when it came to the mic. When The Rock came back to the WWE to take on CM Punk that was worth watching because Punk wasn’t going to allow The Rock to smash him on the mic and the Rock became more serious. Comedy is VASTLY overrated in wrestling. It rarely helps draw ratings or fans and more often than not is detrimental to not only the wrestler, but the promotion in general. If comedy were so great, then Chikara would be a top promotion in the world. Instead, they are lucky to sell out a VFW Hall.

But, I give Steve Austin all of the credit in the world. Unlike Hogan, Austin had to take over a company whose image was very poor at the time and turn it around into a juggernaut and he drew massive ratings, massive attendance and an ungodly amount of merchandise.



YR
 

timb2

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The problem with the 90’s wrestling is that there was a war created between the two biggest companies and somebody has to win and somebody has to lose the war. So while it was fun and interesting to flip the channels, wrestling would have been better off in the end if they had Raw on Monday nights and Nitro on Tuesday nights.


What I enjoyed from the WWE in the 90’s is that they got themselves better in-ring talent that were unabashedly willing to put each other over. This was a far cry from 80’s wrestling where nobody would put over anybody that they thought they were on equal footing with. But in the WWE you had Austin, The Rock and Foley and you had three guys that had excellent attitudes in the locker room as well as being great workers and being great on the mic.


The problem I had with the Rock is that he started to become too funny and started to not put his opponents over when it came to the mic. When The Rock came back to the WWE to take on CM Punk that was worth watching because Punk wasn’t going to allow The Rock to smash him on the mic and the Rock became more serious. Comedy is VASTLY overrated in wrestling. It rarely helps draw ratings or fans and more often than not is detrimental to not only the wrestler, but the promotion in general. If comedy were so great, then Chikara would be a top promotion in the world. Instead, they are lucky to sell out a VFW Hall.

But, I give Steve Austin all of the credit in the world. Unlike Hogan, Austin had to take over a company whose image was very poor at the time and turn it around into a juggernaut and he drew massive ratings, massive attendance and an ungodly amount of merchandise.



YR
I agree Steve Austin was one that WCW screwed over that hurt them big time. WCW got rid of Austin,Hall,HHH,and Nash but kept Beautiful Bobby Eaton???
 

Yakuza Rich

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I agree Steve Austin was one that WCW screwed over that hurt them big time. WCW got rid of Austin,Hall,HHH,and Nash but kept Beautiful Bobby Eaton???

Bobby Eaton was a great worker and a staple in the history of WCW. And he was still over in the early 90's until WCW booked him in such a ridiculous fashion.

But, WCW also had Edge, Jericho, Guerrero, Undertaker and Foley as well. And if they wanted to, they could have made a young Scott Steiner into a megastar because he was massively over in WCW when he was young.

The big difference is that Vince McMahon knew that pro wrestlers have a shelf life and that you had to constantly work to find new stars. Prior to NXT, Vince had his own developmental program that churned out talent while WCW's Power Plant was more or less there so jabronis like Buddy Lee Parker could beat up guys who just got done doing 1,000 squats and pushups. This carried over to the promotion where nobody would put anybody else over. If you don't have that going on and the younger talent can't get a rub from the over talent...you're cooked.





YR
 

timb2

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Bobby Eaton was a no threat to guys like Ric Flair who wanted to stay at the top. So the young talented wrestlers got the boot.
 

MichaelWinicki

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Yeah, I thought the booking during the Crockett "World Aspiration" era was pretty good. I'll give Dusty his due he did do a great job with "faces". The Koloff-Flair-Rhodes cage thing was epic.

My two big gripes with Rhodes' booking, which Rich touched on was... Rhodes was too eager to immerse himself in everything. It was too much.

The second were the gimmick finishes. The infamous "Dusty finish" came into vogue and I don't think it benefited wrestling at all.
 

MichaelWinicki

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The best booker I ever saw was George Scott, who did the booking for Mid-Atlantic Championship Wrestling during the 70's and after a split with Jim Crockett in '81, ended up working with Vince in putting together WrestleMania I and II.

Prior to George Scott coming on board the mid-Atlantic area was primarily known as a tag-team territory, but George Scott helped the Crockett's build arguably the top territory in the entire NWA business.

One of Scott's masterpieces...

Greg Valentine "breaking" Wahoo's leg:



After this, Valentine supposedly went to Las Vegas and had shirts made up that said, "I broke Wahoo's leg".

Needless to say it led to one heck of a series of battles after Wahoo's leg "healed".
 

Yakuza Rich

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George Scott was really good and his ability to adapt from MACW which was very realistic to the WWF which was more of a show was impressive. However, when he came back to WCW in 89 he was completely out of touch.

I actually liked Ole as a booker. The problem with Ole is that he had zero interest of building new stars. He always took shooters or somebody that could instantaneously sell tickets. But a guy like The Undertaker who wasn't a shooter and needed time and care to develop into a superstar...Ole didn't want anything to do with him.

I was actually a big Bill Watts fan as a booker. I've probably defended his run in WCW more than anybody. However, in a growing corporate atmosphere his attitude and behavior simply wasn't going to work.

I used to think that Kevin Sullivan was a horrible booker, but the most I see of his work and see what he had to put up with in WCW...he was much better than I thought and had to overcome too much...and to do the job he did with the nWo and Goldberg was a minor miracle. However, Sullivan can say what he wants...but he was addicted to that Purple Haze/Taskmaster type of gimmicks and would never let it go.

I think Gary Hart has to go down as one of the best bookers ever. His booking drew wherever he went, he never became passe and he doesn't give enough credit as to how much he revolutionized the wrestling industry when he was booking World Class.

I really liked the arrangement that Jerry Lawler and Jerry Jarrett had in Memphis where one would book for 6 months out of the year and then the other would take over for the next 6 months. That keeps things fresh and was a good reason why Memphis lasted so long.

I always respected Giant Baba's booking of All Japan. They were darn good from '89 to '97 and spectacular from '92 to '96. That's hard to do no matter what style of wrestling you do, but even more difficult when you're All Japan and you really don't do promos and it's treated like a shoot.

I liked how Cornette built up SMW and Ohio Valley Wrestling. The problem with Cornette was his inability to develop characters. Where I find Cornette lives in the past (and I love Jimmy) is that he still has the mentality of the good looking blonde kid has to be the face and the good looking dark haired kid should be a heel. As good as Cornette was, I can't see him allowing for a Stone Cold or The Sandman type. The Sandman wasn't a great wrestler, but he drew in ECW and he would not even be a factor if Cornette was there. But, if you had two over characters and asked Cornette to build a program...he's your guy. Cornette was ironically great at building WWE-ish type monsters.

I always thought Heyman had the potential to be the best booker ever. He always looked at booking like being a movie director whereas most bookers look at themselves like a football coach. Heyman wanted to be Scorcese while most bookers want to be Bobby Knight.

Not only did Heyman do wonders in ECW, but he really built up Smackdown when he was the head writer.

The problem with Paul is well noted, but as a booker the issue he had was that his booking required a lot of work as he had specific ways he wanted things done and would keep doing them over until they were done exactly to his liking. The other part was that his booking was very much oriented with music and using music requires getting rights to the music which is expensive.

But in the end, nobody adjusted with the times like Heyman has. I think he could book a promotion when he's 90 years old and still be more in tune with the generation than 25 year old bookers.

I also like Pro Wrestling Guerrilla's booking. They kinda use a Verne Gagne approach in that you basically book 1 or 2 angles for the year and that's all you need. And it's amazing how well things get over when out of nowhere they book a wrestler to interfere and cost the match. Because they do it so rarely, it creates great heat with the fans (myself included) because you were enjoying a great match and that wrestler ruined it for you and now they are being all cocky about it. It's one of the major principles in wrestling...less is more.





YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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My challenge with Heyman isn't his booking it was the choreography of his matches that has led to the over-choreography we have today.
 

MichaelWinicki

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George Scott was really good and his ability to adapt from MACW which was very realistic to the WWF which was more of a show was impressive. However, when he came back to WCW in 89 he was completely out of touch.

I actually liked Ole as a booker. The problem with Ole is that he had zero interest of building new stars. He always took shooters or somebody that could instantaneously sell tickets. But a guy like The Undertaker who wasn't a shooter and needed time and care to develop into a superstar...Ole didn't want anything to do with him.

I was actually a big Bill Watts fan as a booker. I've probably defended his run in WCW more than anybody. However, in a growing corporate atmosphere his attitude and behavior simply wasn't going to work.

I used to think that Kevin Sullivan was a horrible booker, but the most I see of his work and see what he had to put up with in WCW...he was much better than I thought and had to overcome too much...and to do the job he did with the nWo and Goldberg was a minor miracle. However, Sullivan can say what he wants...but he was addicted to that Purple Haze/Taskmaster type of gimmicks and would never let it go.

I think Gary Hart has to go down as one of the best bookers ever. His booking drew wherever he went, he never became passe and he doesn't give enough credit as to how much he revolutionized the wrestling industry when he was booking World Class.

I really liked the arrangement that Jerry Lawler and Jerry Jarrett had in Memphis where one would book for 6 months out of the year and then the other would take over for the next 6 months. That keeps things fresh and was a good reason why Memphis lasted so long.

I always respected Giant Baba's booking of All Japan. They were darn good from '89 to '97 and spectacular from '92 to '96. That's hard to do no matter what style of wrestling you do, but even more difficult when you're All Japan and you really don't do promos and it's treated like a shoot.

I liked how Cornette built up SMW and Ohio Valley Wrestling. The problem with Cornette was his inability to develop characters. Where I find Cornette lives in the past (and I love Jimmy) is that he still has the mentality of the good looking blonde kid has to be the face and the good looking dark haired kid should be a heel. As good as Cornette was, I can't see him allowing for a Stone Cold or The Sandman type. The Sandman wasn't a great wrestler, but he drew in ECW and he would not even be a factor if Cornette was there. But, if you had two over characters and asked Cornette to build a program...he's your guy. Cornette was ironically great at building WWE-ish type monsters.

I always thought Heyman had the potential to be the best booker ever. He always looked at booking like being a movie director whereas most bookers look at themselves like a football coach. Heyman wanted to be Scorcese while most bookers want to be Bobby Knight.

Not only did Heyman do wonders in ECW, but he really built up Smackdown when he was the head writer.

The problem with Paul is well noted, but as a booker the issue he had was that his booking required a lot of work as he had specific ways he wanted things done and would keep doing them over until they were done exactly to his liking. The other part was that his booking was very much oriented with music and using music requires getting rights to the music which is expensive.

But in the end, nobody adjusted with the times like Heyman has. I think he could book a promotion when he's 90 years old and still be more in tune with the generation than 25 year old bookers.

I also like Pro Wrestling Guerrilla's booking. They kinda use a Verne Gagne approach in that you basically book 1 or 2 angles for the year and that's all you need. And it's amazing how well things get over when out of nowhere they book a wrestler to interfere and cost the match. Because they do it so rarely, it creates great heat with the fans (myself included) because you were enjoying a great match and that wrestler ruined it for you and now they are being all cocky about it. It's one of the major principles in wrestling...less is more.





YR

Don't think anyone would make the list from the WWWF/WWF when it comes to top booking. Their process was so formulaic for literally decades.
 

Rockdoc

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agree
i love wrestling
man do you guys know your stuff
great thread!
 

dallasdave

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Austin Idol was born Mike McCord and was raised in Tampa. Florida was one of the biggest wrestling territories of the 60’s and 70’s, led by legendary promoter Eddie Graham. Graham was known as arguably the greatest booker of all time as he was known as a ‘finish man’ as he created these elaborate finishes to matches that got over huge with the crowd. Graham also became Vince McMahon Sr.’s main confidant when it came to making difficult business decisions.

Graham treated pro wrestling like it was an actual professional sport. He financially supported a lot of high school amateur wrestling and you would often hear thru Championship Wrestling from Florida the discussion of a wrestler’s amateur career and how young kids should get into amateur wrestling so they can one day turn into a professional wrestler.

The end result was an incredibly successful territory that continually churned out great workers like Steve Keirn (aka Skinner), Barry Windham, Kevin Sullivan, Great Muta, Ron Bass and many others.

Idol was one of those wrestlers who got more involved thru bodybuilding than amateur wrestling. He was starting off his career as a progressing wrestler, but then was involved in a horrific airplane accident with Gary Hart, Buddy Colt and Bobby Shane (Shane was killed in the accident).

Idol was hurt so badly that he was out of action for years. Rumors had it that he shattered both ankles and completely skinned the bottom of his feet off. Eventually he returned to the ring and became one of the most over wrestlers in the world. Most notably in Memphis where he played a great foil to Jerry Lawler.

Idol was more of a ‘pure’ worker. What I mean by that is his wrestling in the ring was more about finding useful ways to fill time and to make very safe moves look very painful. This is something that was big in Memphis and Lawler’s greatest attribute as well. And with the injuries that Idol suffered in that plane crash, one can see why it was so important for him to learn how to work the fans in the ring.

But the greatest attribute of Idol was his mic work as he could work as a face:





And he was certainly great working the mic as a heel:





There’s a lot to learn from Austin Idol. In fact, The Rock stated that Idol was a big inspiration for the character he developed into.

Obviously, presentation was a big part of Idol’s success. I don’t think he was a poor worker by any means, but due to his injuries he had his physical limitations. But one way to overcome those limitations is to look like a wrestler.

Paul Heyman pointed out that Idol was very smart in being careful to enunciate his words when he started yelling because it’s difficult to hear what exactly a wrestler is saying when they are yelling. And that’s a big part of Idol’s success as a wrestler, he knew *how* and he knew *when* to cut a promo with intensity. Something that is severely lacking in today’s wrestling.



Instead of worrying about catchphrases and lines fed to you by a writer, it’s about how it’s being said. And how Idol said things made Idol a very wealthy man in short career despite having gone thru a horrific plane accident that should have prevented him from ever wrestling again.




YR

Idol was great :yourock::yourock::yourock:
 

Yakuza Rich

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My vote for the most valuable wrestler of all time goes to:

tfunk.jpg

Terry Funk is the son of Dory Funk, Sr. and the brother of Dory Funk, Jr.

Senior was the Indiana state high school wrestling champion and got involved in the pro wrestling business back in the days when the champions had to be legit tough guys to deal with fans and other wrestlers trying to screw them out of a title. He was trained by Frank Gotch and then ended up in Amarillo, Texas. Despite Amarillo only having a population of roughly 125K at that time, it developed into one of the best territories in the history of territories in pro wrestling.

Senior had a knack for booking the business and would often book 'Texas Death Matches' which would last 4+ hours. And what was such a great draw to the Texas Death Matches was how stiff and real the matches looked which fit right in with the Amarillo area.

This spawned Jr. and Terry into the business. Dory Jr. was a very no-nonsense type of wrestler that took after his father and wrestled a very technical style. Terry on the other hand proved to be one of the most versatile wrestlers of all time as he could wrestle the technical style, but then an in-ring brawling style followed by an out of the ring brawling style and eventually into the 90's where he started working a 'hardcore' style.

***
Dory, Sr. was such a good booker that he spawned so many great bookers after him. Dory Sr. was tutored Eddie Graham, Gary Hart and Fritz Von Erich. Eddie Graham tutored Bill Watts, Dusty Rhodes and Kevin Sullivan. Bill Watts tutored Jim Cornette and Eddie Gilbert. Eddie Gilbert tutored Paul Heyman. Cornette was also tutored by Kevin Sullivan and Cornette tutored Delirious (head booker of Ring of Honor). Heyman went on to tutor Gabe Sapolsky (first booker of RoH and current booker of EVOLVE). Dusty also played a role in tutoring Heyman and eventually booked NXT.

But why do I value Terry Funk so much as a wrestler?

Because he was able to have tremendous feuds with the four biggest wrestling stars of the 70's and 80's.

- Hulk Hogan
- Ric Flair
- Jerry Lawler
- Dusty Rhodes

And not only were his feuds financial bonanzas, but he was able to do it in 4 different territories. All the while being a massive star in Japan and Puerto Rico. While it sounds like being in big-time feuds with Flair, Hogan, Lawlwer, etc would be easy...the fact is that it's very difficult to be that good with that many wrestlers and to do it in completely different territories is a real testament to Funk's greatness.

I mean...this is how you get over in your debut in the 1980's WWF:



And here's how you get over when you haven't been wrestling in years.



And then there's the awesome I Quit Match against Flair.



Or convincing the world that you may murder Dusty.



Or even making Lance Russell uncomfortable.



What was great about Funk is that he knew how to be a scary heel. He knew how to push the limits of coming off as crazy to the point where you started to believe that he was a little crazy. Doing certain things like he did in the Flair 'I Quit Match' where he would start to stumble out into the crowd, take swipes at the cameraman for no reason, etc. And like Russell, it made the viewers at home a little uneasy about the man.

Why?

Because unlike heels today (and for the past 20 years)...Terry never did anything to come off as 'cool.' He was just an evil, crazy man that would stop at nothing to inflict pain on your favorite wrestler or anybody that got in the way.

Later on as he got into his 50's and WCW and WWF were not interested in him...Funk became the flag bearer for ECW.

His role cannot be understated because ECW needed a legitimate wrestling star that the fans of wrestling could view as credible. That was the problem with Hogan in TNA. Most fans didn't care if he was around TNA or not. But Terry had the fans genuinely wanting to come see him wrestle.

Unfortunately, YouTube does not have the video of 'Funk in the Box' from ECW where Terry was the surprise wrestler in a box for Cactus Jack. But, it was so well done that it shocked the ECW crowd to their delight. I just don't think that if TNA did that type of reveal with Flair or Hogan that it would bave gotten the same pop that Terry got.

But, that's a problem with a lot of 'writers' and bookers of pro wrestling. A pop really doesn't mean much in the end. What matters is being able to sustain that interest and Terry did.

Why?

Because when you're involved in matches like this...it gives an elder wrestler a lot of credibility with the audience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGc59YkEano

So..there you have it.

The guy that headlined and have extremely successful runs in Florida, Memphis, with the Crocketts, with Vince, in Puerto Rico and Japan while giving ECW credibility with the fans and having been a former NWA World Champion holder. Flair, Lawler, Hogan and Dusty couldn't do that. Terry could.

Oh, and he was in Road House and Over the Top as well.

:)






YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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My vote for the most valuable wrestler of all time goes to:

tfunk.jpg

Terry Funk is the son of Dory Funk, Sr. and the brother of Dory Funk, Jr.

Senior was the Indiana state high school wrestling champion and got involved in the pro wrestling business back in the days when the champions had to be legit tough guys to deal with fans and other wrestlers trying to screw them out of a title. He was trained by Frank Gotch and then ended up in Amarillo, Texas. Despite Amarillo only having a population of roughly 125K at that time, it developed into one of the best territories in the history of territories in pro wrestling.

Senior had a knack for booking the business and would often book 'Texas Death Matches' which would last 4+ hours. And what was such a great draw to the Texas Death Matches was how stiff and real the matches looked which fit right in with the Amarillo area.

This spawned Jr. and Terry into the business. Dory Jr. was a very no-nonsense type of wrestler that took after his father and wrestled a very technical style. Terry on the other hand proved to be one of the most versatile wrestlers of all time as he could wrestle the technical style, but then an in-ring brawling style followed by an out of the ring brawling style and eventually into the 90's where he started working a 'hardcore' style.

***
Dory, Sr. was such a good booker that he spawned so many great bookers after him. Dory Sr. was tutored Eddie Graham, Gary Hart and Fritz Von Erich. Eddie Graham tutored Bill Watts, Dusty Rhodes and Kevin Sullivan. Bill Watts tutored Jim Cornette and Eddie Gilbert. Eddie Gilbert tutored Paul Heyman. Cornette was also tutored by Kevin Sullivan and Cornette tutored Delirious (head booker of Ring of Honor). Heyman went on to tutor Gabe Sapolsky (first booker of RoH and current booker of EVOLVE). Dusty also played a role in tutoring Heyman and eventually booked NXT.

But why do I value Terry Funk so much as a wrestler?

Because he was able to have tremendous feuds with the four biggest wrestling stars of the 70's and 80's.

- Hulk Hogan
- Ric Flair
- Jerry Lawler
- Dusty Rhodes

And not only were his feuds financial bonanzas, but he was able to do it in 4 different territories. All the while being a massive star in Japan and Puerto Rico. While it sounds like being in big-time feuds with Flair, Hogan, Lawlwer, etc would be easy...the fact is that it's very difficult to be that good with that many wrestlers and to do it in completely different territories is a real testament to Funk's greatness.

I mean...this is how you get over in your debut in the 1980's WWF:



And here's how you get over when you haven't been wrestling in years.



And then there's the awesome I Quit Match against Flair.



Or convincing the world that you may murder Dusty.



Or even making Lance Russell uncomfortable.



What was great about Funk is that he knew how to be a scary heel. He knew how to push the limits of coming off as crazy to the point where you started to believe that he was a little crazy. Doing certain things like he did in the Flair 'I Quit Match' where he would start to stumble out into the crowd, take swipes at the cameraman for no reason, etc. And like Russell, it made the viewers at home a little uneasy about the man.

Why?

Because unlike heels today (and for the past 20 years)...Terry never did anything to come off as 'cool.' He was just an evil, crazy man that would stop at nothing to inflict pain on your favorite wrestler or anybody that got in the way.

Later on as he got into his 50's and WCW and WWF were not interested in him...Funk became the flag bearer for ECW.

His role cannot be understated because ECW needed a legitimate wrestling star that the fans of wrestling could view as credible. That was the problem with Hogan in TNA. Most fans didn't care if he was around TNA or not. But Terry had the fans genuinely wanting to come see him wrestle.

Unfortunately, YouTube does not have the video of 'Funk in the Box' from ECW where Terry was the surprise wrestler in a box for Cactus Jack. But, it was so well done that it shocked the ECW crowd to their delight. I just don't think that if TNA did that type of reveal with Flair or Hogan that it would bave gotten the same pop that Terry got.

But, that's a problem with a lot of 'writers' and bookers of pro wrestling. A pop really doesn't mean much in the end. What matters is being able to sustain that interest and Terry did.

Why?

Because when you're involved in matches like this...it gives an elder wrestler a lot of credibility with the audience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGc59YkEano

So..there you have it.

The guy that headlined and have extremely successful runs in Florida, Memphis, with the Crocketts, with Vince, in Puerto Rico and Japan while giving ECW credibility with the fans and having been a former NWA World Champion holder. Flair, Lawler, Hogan and Dusty couldn't do that. Terry could.

Oh, and he was in Road House and Over the Top as well.

:)






YR


Terry Funk... Amazing wrestler. Certainly the most versatile wrestler– Ever! Just like you pointed out. The guy has been in just about every match you could think of, encompassing just about every style you could think of (never saw him in a lucha libre match but he probably could have done that too!).

I do think he has a slight touch of crazy to him.

I'm not sure I'd have him in my top-10 all time. Larry Matysik had him at #15 behind Harley Race and his brother. That sounds about right. I think Dory Jr. was a tad better wrestler.

Terry was GREAT as "Frankie the Thumper" in Sylvester Stallone's "Paradise Alley".
 

Yakuza Rich

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As an all around performer I preferred Terry over Dory. Even from a pure in the ring perspective. Terry's matches had more flare to them. Although I liked how Dory abides by one of my most stringent principles in wrestling...only use moves that you are good at doing. Terry would try the moonsault and he wasn't good at it. Even his piledriver didn't always look that good.

Looking at Matysik's list...some of the wrestlers ranked 1-15 I just didn't see a lot of. But, Piper at 40 and Ray Stevens as 41 I take umbrage with. I would definitely put Terry over Gene Kiniski at #9. And I think Verne is overrated as well. He was definitely mega-over in the midwest but he didn't translate that great elsewhere.





YR
 

MichaelWinicki

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As an all around performer I preferred Terry over Dory. Even from a pure in the ring perspective. Terry's matches had more flare to them. Although I liked how Dory abides by one of my most stringent principles in wrestling...only use moves that you are good at doing. Terry would try the moonsault and he wasn't good at it. Even his piledriver didn't always look that good.

Looking at Matysik's list...some of the wrestlers ranked 1-15 I just didn't see a lot of. But, Piper at 40 and Ray Stevens as 41 I take umbrage with. I would definitely put Terry over Gene Kiniski at #9. And I think Verne is overrated as well. He was definitely mega-over in the midwest but he didn't translate that great elsewhere.





YR

This is Larry's list from 29 up through Piper & Stevens...

29. Whipper Billy Watson 30. Joe Stecher 31. John Cena 32. Bruiser Brody 33. Kurt Angle 34. Danny Hodge 35. Bob Backlund 36. The Undertaker 37. Gorgeous George 38. Pat O'Connor 39. Ted Dibiase 40. Roddy Piper 41. Ray Stevens 42

I don't know who I'd drop in order to move Piper & Stevens up.

I've read up on Stecher... He was a heck of a wrestler.

When I was growing up we were able to watch "Maple Leaf Wrestling" and "Whipper" even at that point in his life (50's) was still a legend.

Maybe move Piper & Stevens ahead of Dibiase.
 

Yakuza Rich

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12,385
Guys like Watson, Stecher, Hodge, O'Conner I never really watched or studied that much.

Dibiase isn't in the same galaxy as Piper or Stevens. Dibiase was a great worker and had some solid drawing power in Mid-South and Japan. But, Piper was a huge draw in Portland, San Francisco, LA, Georgia, the Mid Atlantic and the WWF. He was also a key player in Hogan's rise to prominence and I think without Piper Hogan's fame is substantially less because of how he played the anti-Rock-n-Roll heel which allowed the WWF to get a key connection with MTV and thus get into the mainstream. Piper's interview style has been copied by countless wrestlers.

Stevens was also a big draw most everywhere he went from the AWA, San Francisco, Amarillo and the WWWF. He was arguably the greatest draw in pro wrestling from 1960-1965 until Bruno's rise in popularity. He was also considered the best in-ring worker of the 60's and his wrestling style was copied by wrestlers like Flair and Shawn Michaels.

Backlund isn't even close to Piper other than Backlund having been the heavyweight champion, but by the same token he almost drove the company out of business because outside of Madison Square Garden, he couldn't draw.

Cena and the Undertaker had a great marketing machine behind them, but UT gets too much credit because he was able to take a goofy gimmick and make it great and was able to swim with the sharks for over 20 years. But when the Attitude Era came along it was Foley, Rock and Austin that made it work as UT was really a secondary player. And I have my doubts if the UT could draw in other companies if he was forced to like Piper and Stevens were.

Cena was a pretty good draw, but his strength was that he split the crowd in half with the younger kids liking him and the older adults not liking him. So when you had a heel that was getting over as a face, they could have the heel face Cena and turn that heel to face and keep Cena at face. Problem is that you can only do that so much. And I don't see Cena being the draw that Piper was and even though Stevens was at a completely different time I don't see Cena on the same level with Stevens in terms of a draw.

Angle shouldn't even be anywhere near there other than he was a great athlete and a good worker. Although I always felt that Angle's work was overrated mainly because of his athleticism and he never worked much of anywhere than the WWE and used their style.

I always felt that Piper's in-ring work was very underrated. He wasn't going to work a hammerlock like The Destroyer (travesty he's not on the list, he was the biggest American draw in Japan, ever) and Piper wasn't going to carry stiffs like Flair could. But, he continually had good matches that the fans were always in to.

IIRC, Matysik has HHH at 27 which is another injustice. As Cornette said so perfectly, HHH is the guy that works with the guy that makes the money. I think HHH was a pretty good worker, but for a good worker I have never seen a guy never carry anybody to a good match like HHH did in his career.





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