PFT: Gregory was not lined up in the neutral zone

CalPolyTechnique said:

Lol, how rich is this.


So you continue to try to hang your hat on a point NOBODY is making (that the blue line is not visible on the field) and purposely strain at the obvious evidence that the ball is lined up with the visual reference point (aka "the blue line"). Now you're worried about TV angles as if they haven't accounted for that, lol? Secondly, there is a ref that's sits right on that ball from the sideline that has a real perspective. Yet, in complete irony you've determined he wasn't in the neutral zone based on your perspective from the couch through a TV camera angle.

Just say "I don't wanna believe it" and be done with it.

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I guess you haven't been reading this thread. Marcus is basing his entire argument on the blue line. I'm basing mine on what I can see in the picture, and the fact that every single former referee and rules expect that's been asked about it has said it was a bad call.

But hey, whatever floats your boat tough guy.

MarcusRock said:

Doesn't matter if it's across the ball. If the Center moved the ball back you still can't advance forward into what was the marked neutral zone. Even if the blue line is accurate, Gregory's head is in that blue zone too. Again, he's the ONLY one over the 50 on defense at all. Isn't that right?

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It's a penalty to move the ball.

I haven't seen a call made where the helmet is in the neutral zone in many years.

This call was complete BS.

Idgit said:

It doesn't matter if he was offsides or not. What matters is it's yet another example of officials inserting themselves into the outcomes of games and getting it wrong. On plays that affect the outcomes of games/seasons.

When the play on the field doesn't separate players enough and officials do instead, you're not watching a game anymore. You're watching group of judges decide who moves on and who doesn't. And frankly, that's **** tv.

The league has to fix this.

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If it's a penalty then it's a penalty. Every penalty by definition has an impact on the game. If a ref can't call an infraction out of fear of some latent impact on the ultimate result that would be equally problematic.

I rewatched that series of events. The center never moved the ball back. The ref placed it there. The marker was at the 50 yard line, but the ref placed the ball a half yard behind the 50. If the marker matched the actual ball placement, there would be no flag.

Kauboy said:

First of all the Lt is in an illegal formation. That is likely why Grgory was lined up near the Nz. Also the center almost always moves the ball up a few inches while getting set. And that is literally never called, for non Cowboys. So we would need to see the actual game footage to know the true line of scrimmage. Either way this is rarely called (once again for non Cowboys), and there is a reason for that. Huuuuge error by the officials, that could have easily changed not just the outcome of the game, but possibly the whole season for the Cowboys.

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This is a great point. OTs never get called for this anymore. And it has gotten out of hand.

Vandyr said:

I guess you haven't been reading this thread. Marcus is basing his entire argument on the blue line. I'm basing mine on what I can see in the picture, and the fact that every single former referee and rules expect that's been asked about it has said it was a bad call.

But hey, whatever floats your boat tough guy.

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No, he's very clearly walked you through the significance of the blue line and the location of the ball. You're hung up on the blue line not being visible on the field...a claim he hasn't made.

OmerV said:

I'm not saying the ref's call was accurate, but if it was, it makes absolutely no difference what the situation was or that he had time to think about it. It's not inserting yourself into the game if the call was accurate.

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That's the difference between calling the game in a black and white versus a practical sense. Sure, the rules are the rules. But typically that is not how games are called by the best officials. There are many instances of that.

In the NBA, a ref doesn't necessarily call all the fouls (for instance). If two guys are getting physical he might warn them to knock it off or he'll call something next time. Or if a guy going in for a layup gets a little contact they might not call a foul but if the guy misses, they'll often call a somewhat delayed foul a count or two after. It's also pretty obvious that they expect a guy to really earn a foul in end of game situations and aren't going to call ticky tack fouls.

In the NFL, you can call holding on most plays. But if they did so, it would be a terrible game. Going back to my point, how often do guys lineup in the same spot as gregory? I bet if you look at the tape you'll see it happened plenty of times. As they mention in the link, that's really a situation where the ref should warned gregory, hey, you're a little close there. You might want to take a few inches back. And it probably should have happened earlier in the game, where I imagined he'd lined up plenty of times before. Now, maybe he did and if so, then it's on Gregory. But I have not heard that happened.

Now, tell me again how it makes no difference? The officials job isn't simply to call he plays. His job is to manage the game. And sometimes, managing the game requires more than just black and white interpretation. Especially in this case, where it was a 50/50 call at best in a crucial situation.

CalPolyTechnique said:

No, he's very clearly walked you through the significance of the blue line and the location of the ball. You're hung up on the blue line not being visible on the field...a claim he hasn't made.

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Well obviously he hasn't claimed it's visible on the field genius, but it can't be used as an official reference because it isn't. The only thing you can go by is the placement of the ball and where Gregory is in relation to it.

For all the Page 12 only viewers, lol.

Don Corleone said:

I rewatched that series of events. The center never moved the ball back. The ref placed it there. The marker was at the 50 yard line, but the ref placed the ball a half yard behind the 50. If the marker matched the actual ball placement, there would be no flag.

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How?

If the ball was placed at the 50 yardline as you say it was supposed to be, then the end result would be Gregory even more egregiously in the neutral zone.

Vandyr said:

Well obviously he hasn't claimed it's visible on the field genius, but it can't be used as an official reference because it isn't. The only thing you can go by is the placement of the ball and where Gregory is in relation to it.

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Which the blue line shows you. Lol.

Vandyr said:

Well obviously he hasn't claimed it's visible on the field genius, but it can't be used as an official reference because it isn't. The only thing you can go by is the placement of the ball and where Gregory is in relation to it.

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Precisely ding dong. And Gregory's head is past the front of the ball. The blue line is just visual reference that makes it blatantly clear. That's the point.

MarcusRock said:

If this were the other way around, this would be "proof" that it was correct. It just changes based on what people really, really want to have happen.

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And that's perfectly fine if it's the correct call. But why didn't they call it against the Saints too, along with the false starts that were ignored. If someone is watching the line, how do they conveniently miss that? You say spit happens? That's intentionally overlooked...

MarcusRock said:

Which the blue line shows you. Lol.

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The blue line shows me you're trying to justify an eyeballed claim of centimeters at best, that, once again, has been referenced as a bad call by multiple former referees and rules analysts.

Lol, I mean common sense dictates when you see Anthony Brown, Woods, and Crawford all lined up basically inline with one another way off the LOS and Gregory well in front of them something is off.

CalPolyTechnique said:

Precisely ding dong. And Gregory's head is past the front of the ball. The blue line is just visual reference that makes it blatantly clear. That's the point.

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None of the experts and former refs seem to agree with you and neither his head or hand look like they are past the football in the still.

Give it up already..you just sound foolish trying to act like you can see something no one else sees. Lol

Kauboy said:

First of all the Lt is in an illegal formation. That is likely why Grgory was lined up near the Nz. Also the center almost always moves the ball up a few inches while getting set. And that is literally never called, for non Cowboys. So we would need to see the actual game footage to know the true line of scrimmage. Either way this is rarely called (once again for non Cowboys), and there is a reason for that. Huuuuge error by the officials, that could have easily changed not just the outcome of the game, but possibly the whole season for the Cowboys.

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Typically illegal formation is called first and is the primary infraction. An uncovered line is illegal, and the receivers outside of the tackle are now in illegal formation.

This has to be called or else the offensive line could always ensure that the defence is inside the neutral zone or offsides by drawing them over based on alignment.

This also gives the offensive lineman an unfair advantage of space between him and the defender in pass pro.

We can debate all we want about where Gregory's head is situated or what a neutral zone infraction is, but the primary miss by the ref was the setback by the o-lineman.

The alignment a team takes prior to the snap of the ball is where the rule and structure of the game is fundamentally established. An uncovered line is the most basic to the point refs in younger leagues spend a lot of time teaching young kids this concept when they are learning the game of football.

ksadler1 said:

And that's perfectly fine if it's the correct call. But why didn't they call it against the Saints too, along with the false starts that were ignored. If someone is watching the line, how do they conveniently miss that? You say spit happens? That's intentionally overlooked...

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Call out the plays you're referencing.

Don't treat some blanket general claim like it's fact.

CalPolyTechnique said:

Lol, I mean common sense dictates when you see Anthony Brown, Woods, and Crawford all lined up basically inline with one another way off the LOS and Gregory well in front of them something is off.

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Maybe the fact that the left tackle opposite him is a yard and a half off the ball? That's a bit more obvious of an illegal formation penalty than where Gregory was.

RoyTheHammer said:

None of the experts and former refs seem to agree with you and neither his head or hand look like they are past the football in the still.

Give it up already..you just sound foolish trying to act like you can see something no one else sees. Lol

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Here we go again "past the football," smh.

Learn what the neutral zone is, humble yourself, and get back to me.