Garrett has built this team for playoff success

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Idgit

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There is nothing unusual about Dallas.

It’s simply a situation where the owner thinks of his coach as an asset and if they continue to invest time and money into this, he’ll grow into a great coach. That’s not an unusual thing when you consider the Steelers did it with Cowher and Noll, the Raiders did it with Madden. But all three of those guys have success on the field, including postseason success that gave the owners reason to stick with them.

It’s not about other teams having done it a certain way. It’s about the fact that almost every great coach in NFL history has shown far more success over an 8 year period than Garrett.

I think at this point you are purposely trying to be obtuse on this point.

If you can’t recognize the situation is different in Dallas, we’re never going to make headway here. But Jerry’s got latitude other GMs do not, and he’s willing to use it when he thinks he’s got the right guy. His team’s steady improvement under Garrett suggests he’s probably right in this case.

And it’s not obtuse for me to disagree with you when you’re wrong.
 

Rockport

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If you can’t recognize the situation is different in Dallas, we’re never going to make headway here. But Jerry’s got latitude other GMs do not, and he’s willing to use it when he thinks he’s got the right guy. His team’s steady improvement under Garrett suggests he’s probably right in this case.

And it’s not obtuse for me to disagree with you when you’re wrong.
It’s obvious that many fans just haven’t been paying attention over the years. Jerry’s changed over the years. He’s got his son in his ear now reigning him in. He knows he blew it with Galloway and Williams. He also knows he hit it big with Deion. I think Parcells really has been a big influence on Jerry. He’s learned to let the coaches build the team the way they want. If people would pay attention they would have been able to see this unfold. Some of us I guess are just more in to the team and seem to pay more attention. Others just listen to SAS and the likes and dig in with an agenda.
 

Idgit

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It’s obvious that many fans just haven’t been paying attention over the years. Jerry’s changed over the years. He’s got his son in his ear now reigning him in. He knows he blew it with Galloway and Williams. He also knows he hit it big with Deion. I think Parcells really has been a big influence on Jerry. He’s learned to let the coaches build the team the way they want. If people would pay attention they would have been able to see this unfold. Some of us I guess are just more in to the team and seem to pay more attention. Others just listen to SAS and the likes and dig in with an agenda.

As long as he has access and gets the credit and the brand grows, I don’t think Jerry really cares all that much, honestly. He just wants to be the one up front steering the barge.
 

Rockport

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As long as he has access and gets the credit and the brand grows, I don’t think Jerry really cares all that much, honestly. He just wants to be the one up front steering the barge.
Exactly. And one of the mantras for some fans is “all he cares about is money”. Don’t they realize that the more the Cowboys win the more $$$ goes into Jerry’s wallet? I wonder often about the depth of conscious of some of our fans.
 

jazzcat22

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I think we are failing to separating team building from game planning, or I guess the popular term around here is scheming... I just don't buy the notion that Garret is Bill Parcells and built the current team. I'm not saying he hasn't had his hand in the pot. There doesn't seem to be one mastermind who builds the cowboys. It's been working in recent years. But I'm not going to pretend Jason is the next Tuna when he's not.

I didn't say he was.
Just not giving all the credit to the FO either.
 

plasticman

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Sounds like a lot of insider information. It For instance how do you know that Jason Garret hardly ever gets over ruled when it comes to drafting? And why would the organization talk about there being a vote when there is not?
The profiles of the vast majority of the draftees match the description given by Garrett in the spring of 2011 before he ever participated in a draft as the Head Coach.

Leadership is a key element, most draft picks were captains. Again, the majority of them did well in school, emphasis on graduating. Intelligence was an important trait, especially on offense.

If you anybody was to research it, you would find that most offensive drafts picks, particularly blockers like O-linemen, TE's, and FB's, were All-Academic for their conferences.

Garrett preferred highly productive college careers to athletic specimens with "potential" to be successful in the NFL level.

Then there was the "right kind of guy" part. They went for good citizenship for the most part, they wanted guys who loved the game and worked hard to improve, unselfish, playing for their teammates as well as themselves.

Now, don't get me wrong. In the premium upper round picks, the skill and talent that was compatible with their needs trumped everything.

They always wanted to capitalize on draft position value versus what was available.

Both Lawrence and Gregory entered the draft with baggage that detrimented their value to the point where it was real value to take them in the 2nd round. Considering their past performance, if these guys didn't work out then the Cowboys wouldn't lose much more than they were already used to. Of course, they did their due diligence.

The same is true for Jaylon. His potential if recovered, far outweighed the actual value of the pick at the time, I think all three would have been a top ten pick without the baggage. Getting value was something Garrett emphasized.

Garrett also made a point of stating that they must stick to the plan, never get impatient, never trade the future for the present by trading away draft picks unless it was a great deal that provided real value.

I would say that acquiring a young, gifted Pro-Bowl receiver for a 1st round pick satisfied the "unless" part. Other the .that, when was the last time a high draft pick was traded away.?

Cooper is so young that he will be incorporated into the long term plans of the team.

McClay is a great evaluators but it is not his team. He is evaluating these players based on the criteria created by Garrett.

Again, Garrett father and brother were both Scots, Judd still is. What do you think they discussed around the dinner table since they were kids?

There is no vote, don't be decieved by the drivel that Jerry has relinquished any authority. He only promised to pay more attention to what those around him we're saying. Jerry has the final say on every personnel decision. It Garrett or anyone else were ever overruled then it was by Jerry.

So everyone really should drop the Garrett hate, it will only make you miserable. I know you don't want to believe he is the most responsible for the present success but the great coaches tell us how they plan to be successful before they even begin. Garrett's plan called for a new culture which included patience while building things the right way.

That is because when something is built the right way, it has a tendency to last much longer.....which, like it or not, that is what Garrett will do.
 

CowboyMike

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Since when is Garrett in charge of drafting and scouting. I know he has a voice, but he is not the one who built this team.

Oh yes he is. Starting with Tyron Smith, whom he scouted himself and worked out personally at USC. You think it's a coincidence that we immediately started rebuilding the offensive line the year he took over?
 

CCBoy

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What?? you are confused my friend.

This is what I said, hopefully we win and play for a chance to get to a SB. If we lose, it`s basically what happened in 2014 and 2016 and IMO that is not enough.

Confused...not hardly. Just acknowledging strength of what has already been on, then, and now. Nothing to cry about, already. The team is gaining playoff experience and a stronger/youthful core as well.

Oh, and there seems to be a sidestep of the question asked...think that Dallas does or does not effectively control Donalds? That may well write out the storyline for this particular game.

Rogers wrote out the storyline for the other two games...lost by a field goal's amount, both games.
 

Sydla

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If you can’t recognize the situation is different in Dallas, we’re never going to make headway here. But Jerry’s got latitude other GMs do not, and he’s willing to use it when he thinks he’s got the right guy. His team’s steady improvement under Garrett suggests he’s probably right in this case.

And it’s not obtuse for me to disagree with you when you’re wrong.

It's obtuse because you keep arguing against things that are simple facts.

Few coaches have turned in the resume Garrett has through 8 seasons and then gone onto elite success. That's just a fact. Those that have stuck out jobs as long as Garrett have almost all (save for Landry) had way more success than Garrett through 8 seasons. These are simple realities that you keep trying to spin away.

If you believe Garrett can turn into that guy, that's great. But what's foolish and obtuse is to pretend he wouldn't be an outlier, that him suddenly winning SBs would be an anomaly when you look at the history of the NFL. Just say, you know what, I get all that but I think Garrett is going to buck that trend. Instead you spend all your time trying to make what is factual, apparently not factual.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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Sounds like a lot of insider information. For instance how do you know that Jason Garret hardly ever gets over ruled when it comes to drafting? And why would the organization talk about there being a vote when there is not?
its not a democratic process. the process for dallas is no different than any other team, except for........Jerry Jones. When jerry makes football decisions, usually things turn bad. when he pushed his way with coaches on draft, then we had crappy drafts......what garrett has been able to do is sell Jerry on the process (yeah, that word again). He has been able to convince Stephen, who has great influence and control over his dad. The scouts do their job, evaluate players, strengths, weaknesses, grade them. The coaches in off season watch tape of the players. does the head coach watch every hour of every tape on every player? no, similar to a CEO, he doesn't micromanage all the the managers in his organization.....but if he has good managers, they know when to pull him into decision making processes in the end.....so its not a surprise for a coach to have certain philosophies and thus collaborate with scouts, identifying players that fit those philosophies. evaluate players as such, etc. what the team values directly impacts their decision on drafting.

it was and became evident, including from garrett himself and his philosophy, which was shaped from the time he was with the cowboys, he wanted to build from inside out. we drafted an OL for the first time in cowboys history. and not only that, a top 10 pick....don't forget that at the time, they had a choice between Smith and Watt. Convincing Jerry to take a tackle, top 10, in order to protect his franchise QB....subsequently we spent a 1st round pick, on a Guard!!!! and a 1st round pick on a center...... those don't happen by accident.

now, you don't like garrett, that's fine. his game day coaching needs improvement....yes. but in terms of the process, of identifying talent and adding talent that fit a philosophy, he has done well. you can't deny that outside of injuries, this OL isn't one of the best and a center point of the cowboys team.
 

Bob-Lillys-War

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It's obtuse because you keep arguing against things that are simple facts.

Few coaches have turned in the resume Garrett has through 8 seasons and then gone onto elite success. That's just a fact. Those that have stuck out jobs as long as Garrett have almost all (save for Landry) had way more success than Garrett through 8 seasons. These are simple realities that you keep trying to spin away.

If you believe Garrett can turn into that guy, that's great. But what's foolish and obtuse is to pretend he wouldn't be an outlier, that him suddenly winning SBs would be an anomaly when you look at the history of the NFL. Just say, you know what, I get all that but I think Garrett is going to buck that trend. Instead you spend all your time trying to make what is factual, apparently not factual.
:hammer:

Garrett is garbage, and his 9 year record proves it.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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I think we are failing to separating team building from game planning, or I guess the popular term around here is scheming... I just don't buy the notion that Garret is Bill Parcells and built the current team. I'm not saying he hasn't had his hand in the pot. There doesn't seem to be one mastermind who builds the cowboys. It's been working in recent years. But I'm not going to pretend Jason is the next Tuna when he's not.
even parcells wasn't the master mind. parcells had certain philosophy of what he wanted as a team. so does every other coach. parcells was a 3-4 guy, he put up wit 4-3 for a year and then transitioned and thus Zimmer moved on. as a result, the draft and scouting focused on 3-4 type of players....and similar to garrett, he has had definite impact on how this team was built. Did parcells do it all by himself? no. no coach does. including the GOAT in New England.

where Jason has lacked is on game day management and we had had to endure him growing up in that phase. Also I think he is a bit stubborn and too supportive of some of his coaches. I think even in that area he has learned to grow, including letting coaches go, mid year when it wasn't working and there were rumors that there were going to let Linehan go. I don't have as much problem with Garrett, offensive or defensive philosophies or what he is trying to do. play calling on game day needs improvement and game day management needed improvement.

and btw, outside of NE, I don't think any team has a master mind. and even the great Parcells, being the master mind in Jets, Dallas and Miami didn't quite work out.
 

CowboysFaninHouston

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It’s obvious that many fans just haven’t been paying attention over the years. Jerry’s changed over the years. He’s got his son in his ear now reigning him in. He knows he blew it with Galloway and Williams. He also knows he hit it big with Deion. I think Parcells really has been a big influence on Jerry. He’s learned to let the coaches build the team the way they want. If people would pay attention they would have been able to see this unfold. Some of us I guess are just more in to the team and seem to pay more attention. Others just listen to SAS and the likes and dig in with an agenda.
I agree. I think as Jerry has let go and relied more on his son, things have improved. Jerry's approach was to swing for the fences every time and make marketing moves to excite the fans, for short term gains and long term losses. perhaps as he has gotten older, he has gotten softer
 

Idgit

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It's obtuse because you keep arguing against things that are simple facts.

Few coaches have turned in the resume Garrett has through 8 seasons and then gone onto elite success. That's just a fact. Those that have stuck out jobs as long as Garrett have almost all (save for Landry) had way more success than Garrett through 8 seasons. These are simple realities that you keep trying to spin away.

If you believe Garrett can turn into that guy, that's great. But what's foolish and obtuse is to pretend he wouldn't be an outlier, that him suddenly winning SBs would be an anomaly when you look at the history of the NFL. Just say, you know what, I get all that but I think Garrett is going to buck that trend. Instead you spend all your time trying to make what is factual, apparently not factual.

I’m not arguing against your fact. I’m not disputing it. I’m saying it isn’t all that relevant.

It can be an outlier, since the circumstances that make it an outlier are understood and explainable.

The problem you have is you don’t think the situation in Dallas is unusual in regards to the GMs ability to stick things out. But it obviously is.
 

Sydla

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I’m not arguing against your fact. I’m not disputing it. I’m saying it isn’t all that relevant.

It can be an outlier, since the circumstances that make it an outlier are understood and explainable.

The problem you have is you don’t think the situation in Dallas is unusual in regards to the GMs ability to stick things out. But it obviously is.

Your last sentence makes zero sense in the context of this debate. Who cares if Jerry can stick with a coach longer than say other GMs because Jerry won't fire himself for hiring a bad coach? That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Garrett and the success of Garrett relative to other coaches who have also been on their jobs as long. The whole point here is that when you stack up Garrett's early career resume with almost all the other truly successful coaches, his resume ranks near the bottom in terms of success. That's backed by the factual evidence that almost every single coach (again, save Landry) that has won a SB had way more success in their first 7-8 years of coaching than Garrett. It's quite relevant to the discussion. I get why you would want to claim it's irrelevant but anyone who is truly honest in this debate would admit that while it's "possible" Garrett could develop into an elite coach, history would indicate that if you haven't shown any real success at this point, it's unlikely you are going to then turn yourself into an elite coach.

In the grand scheme of things, it's far better for this franchise for Garrett to be that anomaly. I certainly don't deny that. I just don't really believe he's that guy given he's shown very little of that to date.
 

Rockport

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It's obtuse because you keep arguing against things that are simple facts.

Few coaches have turned in the resume Garrett has through 8 seasons and then gone onto elite success. That's just a fact. Those that have stuck out jobs as long as Garrett have almost all (save for Landry) had way more success than Garrett through 8 seasons. These are simple realities that you keep trying to spin away.

If you believe Garrett can turn into that guy, that's great. But what's foolish and obtuse is to pretend he wouldn't be an outlier, that him suddenly winning SBs would be an anomaly when you look at the history of the NFL. Just say, you know what, I get all that but I think Garrett is going to buck that trend. Instead you spend all your time trying to make what is factual, apparently not factual.
As Bill Belichick once said, "You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners."
 

Sydla

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As Bill Belichick once said, "You know how I feel about stats. Stats are for losers. Final scores are for winners."

8 full seasons coached in Dallas.

3 playoff appearances.

3 division titles.

2 playoff wins.

To date, Garrett has not exactly been lighting up the final scoreboard.

He has a chance to start changing this Saturday night.
 

Idgit

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Your last sentence makes zero sense in the context of this debate. Who cares if Jerry can stick with a coach longer than say other GMs because Jerry won't fire himself for hiring a bad coach? That has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Garrett and the success of Garrett relative to other coaches who have also been on their jobs as long. The whole point here is that when you stack up Garrett's early career resume with almost all the other truly successful coaches, his resume ranks near the bottom in terms of success. That's backed by the factual evidence that almost every single coach (again, save Landry) that has won a SB had way more success in their first 7-8 years of coaching than Garrett. It's quite relevant to the discussion. I get why you would want to claim it's irrelevant but anyone who is truly honest in this debate would admit that while it's "possible" Garrett could develop into an elite coach, history would indicate that if you haven't shown any real success at this point, it's unlikely you are going to then turn yourself into an elite coach.

In the grand scheme of things, it's far better for this franchise for Garrett to be that anomaly. I certainly don't deny that. I just don't really believe he's that guy given he's shown very little of that to date.

You’re going in circles. Yes it’s unusual for a HC to get this much rope. Yes Garrett has gotten a lot of rope. But if the reality is most organizations aren’t in a position to give a lot of rope because most of them are run by GMs who are beholden to impatient owners and Dallas is not, then it doesn’t really matter that Dallas is trying to do something we don’t see done with those other franchises.

I don’t care that we havent seen other organizations do it, because I know why they generally haven’t.

You’re also underestimating what Garrett has accomplished to-dare again, but that’s not new.
 
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