Dalton Schultz bare with me

CowboysExchange said:

But still Witten wasn't in his prime and couldn't change the outcome of games in 5+ years so yes we woulda been better as a te core with Witten but not by much.
Our season was off offensively because we couldn't stay on the field or score points. Witten could have contributed on picking up a few first downs per game but as far as making big big plays against teams outside our division and scoring and winning playoff games he couldn't elevate this team enough to make us much more potent enough to advance. Not playing all of the critical down passing plays . He woulda had to cut his passing snaps. And that's not the legacy he wanted to leave. That's what made him so good. Not his big plays and scores on critical passing downs

The tes we have now are no different. Take out their production against our familar subpar division rivals and these tes are batting Zero

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1. I didn't say Witten was hugely better than our current crop of tight ends, just that he was better. Dak had confidence in throwing to him, and he was usually open. Our current tight ends don't have either of those things.
2. If you get a few more first downs at least you have more chances to make other plays. Not every throw to Witten was designed to be a touchdown or 30 yard gain, same for Kelce or Ertz.
3. As far as our not being able to score points, again, Witten only had 5 tds his last year but that's better the one the others had until Jarwin's 3 td game.

You're acting like we're saying Witten was All Pro, we're not and he wasn't, but we're strictly comparing Witten to Jarwin, et al, and saying Witten was better overall...

CowboysExchange said:

Some of you guys are ignorant. Wittens last 5 years were pathetic. He shoulda got cut 5 years ago. The only 82 we miss was the player in his prime lmao.

Swaim Jarwin Schultz and Gathers suck also. We've had the worst te core for 5+ years. These tes played every passing snap and put up 1 TD in 15 games That's as pathetic as it gets. Anybody commending this te core doesn't know jack squat about football .

The cowboys have an everydown te scheme where the te/s don't ever come off the field. We had the Sorriest red zone offense, the Sorriest 3rd down conversion rate and the Sorriest scoring offense and these tes didn't do Jack squat but put up zeros every week.

Our biggest position of need is a receiving te. If you're commending these tes then you should be fired as fans because all of these tes should be cut because they cannot produce winning Stats.

Hanna caught 1 TD in his whole frican career. You guys need to get some glasses and read the zeros in the stat columns and compare these te production #'s to the top tes in the league.

They all need to be cut and don't even justify a gosh darn roster spot. Neither did 82 for the past 5 years.

Y'all always crying how great Hanna was and how he was never used but he started for 2 years and never caught more than 2 passes in a year .Some of y'all need to lay that crack pipe down if you think that any of these tes are worthy of a roster spot much less an everydown role .it's fans like you that's keeping these washed up tes in Superstar roles .Compare the nfl paper stats of our te core compared to the that of the other teams.

Combine stat comparisons is what you use when you're on crack or because your te has subpar NFL stats

When we get a top 5 receiving te that's when we can get complacent.

These tes are home Depot parking lot champions but not NFL worthy

WE're at home this weekend is because our starting te didn't morph into Kelce but he played every snap and put up zeros on paper.

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You sure went out of your way to offend everyone. Did it ever enter your mind that it's OK for someone else to see things differently than you do?

kskboys said:

You sure went out of your way to offend everyone. Did it ever enter your mind that it's OK for someone else to see things differently than you do?

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Sorry about that buddy. Im a real black n white stats guy myself and I get carried away sometimes. I wasn't trying to offend anyone as much as make my point. I'm just trying to keep it real and I think alot of peeps are holding on to fond memories of 82 in his prime. I'm a statistical guy but I'm a realist also brother.

The NFL is not a stats league. It's a results oriented league. It doesn't make a difference what you did in the first quarter or in meaningless games if you didn't help contribute enough critical down and distance plays to go win something significant.

If you needed 6-7 yards and a first down Witten was a reliable catch rate possession receiver. For ball control and blocking. He was a great completion rate possession receiver.

He could make plays and was a much better every down te than what this entire core was in his last year when he was just a shell of the everydown te he was in his prime

Witten had great skillsets even in his last year's but he wasn' that everydown player anymore because he had lost his abilities to make critical down plays that he could make when he was in his prime. He was void of big play capabilities and just didn't impact the game anymore as an everydown receiver because he was not a deep threat or very clutch at making any type of significant game winning plays when it was do or die situations. He probably would have been a great guy to keep around for depth at the position but his overall talent was just not everydown worthy anymore and he had unfortunately built his entire legacy and career of being the everydown te that wasn't coming off the field.

Now It's 3rd and 14 and the game or season is on the line and you have an everydown te that has lost his speed. He gonna invite the blitz but the Defense is gonna double up coverage on the skilled guys who can statistically get the14 yards and only contain the guys who can't.

In his prime he could make those plays playing every snap enough to warrant the everydown te role and be a factor for any down and distance on passing snaps. But he couldn't play at a Level to continue as the everydown receiving te and he'd have a big game against familiar foe like division rivals because of his experience but his skillsets combined with his lack of speed couldn't make enough impact in the stat column or highlight reel to warrant his involvement on critical passing snaps at even 3rd and 10.

He'swas just a possesion receiver and if we had the best slot wr in all of football or even an equal to Zeke at rb we would have sent out #82 to make a play against a playoff caliber defense when he didn't have a chance on God's green earth to make those plays with his skillsets. Forward on 9 years under Garrett and this scheme and the NFL has changed and the rules produce higher scoring games that require 4-5 players to score Every game even in the playoffs and your everdown te scheme has no potency because the leading everydown receiving te has no potency .

That's where we're stuck as a team. Weve had plenty of talent to run an integrated running and passing attack using a combination of dual rbs and slot receivers and still using alot of the 11 and 12 formations. But the Cowboys continue down the one dimensional low scoring run dominant offense and doesn't spread the ball around to enough scoring playmakers and you got Hanna and Witten dominating passing snaps even though there's no potency of making any big passing plays consistently at a high enough level.

Witten had a prime. He's not an everydown receiver anymore. He's had a great career but he's made a legacy of being that everydown receiver but he couldn't do that forever.

The set it and forget it every down te scheme is broken when you don't have a te that can make in impact as a receiver. He came he was awesome. He had an extraordinary career but now he's slow and it's past time to go and pursue something where he can have an everydown role.

Great player, Great Role, Hofamer, tough son of a gun, but not an everydown te in a league designed for a Superstar Receiving Tes, super slot wrs, and super rbs that can score more frequently.

LACowboysFan1 said:

1. I didn't say Witten was hugely better than our current crop of tight ends, just that he was better. Dak had confidence in throwing to him, and he was usually open. Our current tight ends don't have either of those things.
2. If you get a few more first downs at least you have more chances to make other plays. Not every throw to Witten was designed to be a touchdown or 30 yard gain, same for Kelce or Ertz.
3. As far as our not being able to score points, again, Witten only had 5 tds his last year but that's better the one the others had until Jarwin's 3 td game.

You're acting like we're saying Witten was All Pro, we're not and he wasn't, but we're strictly comparing Witten to Jarwin, et al, and saying Witten was better overall...

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I agree that Witten was better than this te core. But he didn't have enough speed last year to elevate this team at a higher level and only reproducing Wittens production is one thing but making winning production is another . This scheme is gonna have to substitute on 3rd down regardless because why the production is still there on paper to replace the demished skills of 82 it was still not as effective. The potency of what impact the stats #82 produced last year was more potent. But I'm not wavering from the point that the everydown te position has been inneffective for the past 5+ years because they can't make enough plays in the games when it matters.

Look at Gronk for instance .He's on a different plateau than Witten in his prime. Some may argue that he's still better than 82 but he's lost a step and is a shell of himself this year. But he made the critical blocks and the critical receptions and scores and won playoff games and superbowls

Our tes got to play everydown in the playoffs but once again they got contained from being effective .They we're just a warm bodies keeping an everydown passing te scheme alive that can't compete against a high scoring offense .

I think witten numbers were never going to be great with dak. He knew it but is a stand up guy, so he’d never say it. Beasley’s never going to shine with dak either. I live beast, but he can be amazing with brees, Brady, Rodgers or sone other top 12 qb. Cooper and Beasley can be amazing together if used right. Throw in Gallup as the 3rd option with no. 2 potential.

KingRah said:

I think witten numbers were never going to be great with dak. He knew it but is a stand up guy, so he’d never say it. Beasley’s never going to shine with dak either. I live beast, but he can be amazing with brees, Brady, Rodgers or sone other top 12 qb. Cooper and Beasley can be amazing together if used right. Throw in Gallup as the 3rd option with no. 2 potential.

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I'm not as critical of Dak. The wr core is great but this te led scheme doesn't give Dak any weapons. Every passing formation is littered with either 1 or 2 tes that don't even belong in the Nfl must less have an everydown role . All defenses have to do is double up the good wrs and make Dak thow it deep to the te. But we havent had a Te with great deep ball or red zone skills since the last Superbowl on 1995

Poor Romo and Prescott. And any other QB for that matter with this old slow outdated everydown te scheme that hasn't evolved since 1995 .

Why emulate a scheme that is based upon these tes playing every snap. Why won't they go get a steak at the te position instead of these Average to bottom barrel receiving tes we've had forever

KingRah said:

Numbers aren't everything. I know that, but he's faster than ertz, taller and according to measurables, can change direction better. Should we be patient with him. Can he develop into a pro bowl tight end? He obviously has to master route running and blocking, but ertz didn't emerge right away. It wasn't until 2016 when he was 26.

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He showed he belonged in the NFL. That being said that is more being a pass catcher than measurables, so we just have to see how he develops.

I think he will be the starter as an inline TE if we dont resign Swain. I also we will look tonthe draft for a move TE

LACowboysFan1 said:

1. I didn't say Witten was hugely better than our current crop of tight ends, just that he was better. Dak had confidence in throwing to him, and he was usually open. Our current tight ends don't have either of those things.
2. If you get a few more first downs at least you have more chances to make other plays. Not every throw to Witten was designed to be a touchdown or 30 yard gain, same for Kelce or Ertz.
3. As far as our not being able to score points, again, Witten only had 5 tds his last year but that's better the one the others had until Jarwin's 3 td game.

You're acting like we're saying Witten was All Pro, we're not and he wasn't, but we're strictly comparing Witten to Jarwin, et al, and saying Witten was better overall...

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I believe that whole heartedly and I believe #82 was a great te about 5+ years ago. What we've seen from him on critical downs hasn't been up to standards in a scheme desigbed for an everydown te.

His blocking was still decent and he was always healthy but he lost his deep ball skillsets and his scoring capabilities when his speed fell off a cliff over 5 years ago.

Gronk Kelce, and all the Superstar Tes draw double and triple teams and the best defenders.

There's no comparison in skillsets as a receiver because #82 never had all the skillsets to dominate as a receiver because he had mediocre red zone and deep ball skillsets forever. He couldn't play anywhere but the slot his entire career. He was great until he lost his speed. But once his speed was gone he was just entertaining. There was no abilies to take over a game score enough or draw double coverage which is the true measurement of a receiver

Yards completions and 3rd down % is nice but someone has to make a catch and score when the game is on the line and unfortunately that's what matters the most in today's NFL .

Witten Was a very good te his entire career but comparing him to a great receiver like Gonk is absurd. The Superstar tes have complete skillsets as receivers and can take over a game whereas #82 didnt have enough wr traits to draw a double team

If we win a Superbowl with an average Te I will personally kiss everybodies feet. I figure I at least have another 22 years so I'll gladly take that bet.

That's the problem with the everydown te scheme. Its so vanilla and inept that it requires either a steak at the te position or a steak at every other skilled position Rotating around the everydown te.

If you're marching down to win the game or go home do you want Jason Witten as a receiver? Change your broken scheme Jerry. At least until you find you a gamechanging te

Jay navachek could come off the couch and score more TDS than our entire te core lol. There no worse dynamic than giving your QB one less weapon to throw to on passing downs especially if you line up in the same predictable formation for 15 years

It can beat a team with a QB/coach that can't put someone away. But when is the likely hood of that in the NFL playoffs

CowboysExchange said:

I believe that whole heartedly and I believe #82 was a great te about 5+ years ago. What we've seen from him on critical downs hasn't been up to standards in a scheme desigbed for an everydown te.

His blocking was still decent and he was always healthy but he lost his deep ball skillsets and his scoring capabilities when his speed fell off a cliff over 5 years ago.

Gronk Kelce, and all the Superstar Tes draw double and triple teams and the best defenders.

There's no comparison in skillsets as a receiver because #82 never had all the skillsets to dominate as a receiver because he had mediocre red zone and deep ball skillsets forever. He couldn't play anywhere but the slot his entire career. He was great until he lost his speed. But once his speed was gone he was just entertaining. There was no abilies to take over a game score enough or draw double coverage which is the true measurement of a receiver

Yards completions and 3rd down % is nice but someone has to make a catch and score when the game is on the line and unfortunately that's what matters the most in today's NFL .

Witten Was a very good te his entire career but comparing him to a great receiver like Gonk is absurd. The Superstar tes have complete skillsets as receivers and can take over a game whereas #82 didnt have enough wr traits to draw a double team

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I disagree, can't help what you think, we just don't see things the same way.

That's cool...

LACowboysFan1 said:

I disagree, can't help what you think, we just don't see things the same way.

That's cool...

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The Rams have a similar everydown te and te scheme like witten in his prime. He made some critical plays in the game against the saints that if he doesn't make them the Ram's lose.

When our tes can make those kinda plays that win games we'll win something . Stats don't mean anything if he can't make winning plays .

Also don't forget that the cowboys had a top tier scoring defense and a top tier special teams which if not in place can't change the field position. You can't tell me that we're working hard to improve our sts . It's going nowhere also. There's no accountability

The defense is gonna force dak to beat them with the tes. If you're Dak Prescott how are you supposed to feel about that when you got Geoff Swaim as your go to guy. He'll be wide open. Throw it to him every time Dak. See how many games Swaim wins for ya.

Well he played every passing snap for 15 games and the answer was zero. Witten played 5+ years slow as an elephant and the stats and highlights don't lie my friend. He wasn't Batting zero but his potency to make winning plays had left the building when his speed declined. Romo would throw him the same three yard checkdowns on 3rd and 10 and he might get 4 yards total max because he had no juice .If you saw juice and tackle breaking abilities and Scoring Abilities and big play capabilities then you haven't been watching cowboy tes for years. When is the last time one of our tes drew a double team. Can anyone pull that up in the stats.? How about a game winning play in the playoffs or Superbowl?

Just warm bodied te getting contained as receivers is what I've been watching

I'm a fan of #82 and I wish him the best. He was a warrior on the field who fought through snap after snap game after game season after season. He was something else when he had some speed and was in his prime. That's not an easy feat playing every snap at an NFL level. Swaim tried it and broke down. Bring up the next everydown te and see if he can play every snap all season without breaking down.
It's asking alot of a tight end to play every blocking play and get manhandled by playoff defenses and then expect him to produce as a receiver on 3rd and 24. We may have adopted this LEGACY of an Everydown Te position.

I have no problem buying in to it being able to work when you can spread the ball around to enough playmakers who can score.

This is a scoring league. Teams are avg 30+ points a game scheming their 2-3 rbs, 2-3 tes, 6-7 of theirtheir best wrs and 1 QB.

Our entire offensive scheme was based off Zeke and he had 6 TDS all year and Swaim who had 1 td all year. 6 TDS for an exclusive everydown back and an Everydown te was the constant in this offensive scheme. 7 total TDS from your top 2 snapcounts.

This is not gonna be an explosive enough offense to win three playoff games in a row against the top coached best defenses at a playoff caliber level .

You have a constant in Amari who can score about every other Game which is 8 TDS

That's 15 TDS between your top 3 Constants.

That's not a high powered combination . Todd Gurley had almost that many tds by himself.

Your top 3 Constants in personel groups this year (top 2 weapons) (blocking te) got only 15 TDS this year. Thank goodness Dak who is a constant in this offense can score he's good for a TD every 3 games and adds 6 per year Thats still only 21 TDS between your top 4 constants in snapcounts.
That's not a very potent combination for your top four constants .

You only have 2 more constants to count since only 6 constants can be on the field .that's 6 skilled players Right?

Your two last 2 constants are contributory constants are Rotating and aren't considered constants because they don't play that many snaps but by majority of snapcounts to
TDS. Gallup 2 Beasely 3 Schultz 0, Hurns 2, Jarwin 3.

Ok that's 31 tds which is not good at all. I'm not exactly for sure who else scored on offense rod Smith or the full back but you get get a clear picture of how this scheme failed us this particular year.

We didn't have a good red zone offense Grade F
We couldn't stay on the field on 3rd Down Grade D
We Couldn't score points Grade F

Okay the GM and Owner is waiting for you to give them a synopsis of how you can avg 30+ points a game and make this into a winning football team. Based upon scoring production and allowcation of snapcounts alone how can you improve this team next year to compete with 30+ point average all year and through the playoffs and the Superbowl .

I see a running back core and Te core who struggled to score Even though it led the league in Rushing.

Amari was a Great addition but he's just an avg #1 receiver based upon his Scoring production . I give him a B+

Why the decline from the running back core in Scoring? Can we add more depth D- Grade

Why the decline in the te core scoring production and 3rd down conversions over the first 15 games and in the playoffs? Grade F
Is sn 8 td a year #1 wr enough to carry this team . Dez has doubled that in his prime? Just noting.

What can we do moving forward to fix the top 4 constants to make it more potent at scoring? What can we do with the rotation of players that are the complimentary players that are Rotating around these (top 4 Constants Dak, Zeke, Amari, and Swaim)

This scheme is designed based upon snapcounts that the Top 4 constants be the best Scoring players on the team. Our top 4 constants need a overhaul because that is way off in Scoring. how can we fix that?

Can we give the ball more to Zeke? He's already maxed out in touches .

What is the blueprint to fixing the scoring production? Thoughts?
.

CowboysExchange said:

Amari was a Great addition but he's just an avg #1 receiver based upon his Scoring production . I give him a B+

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So is Julio Jones an avg #1 receiver also? He seldom scores...

CowboysExchange said:

Is sn 8 td a year #1 wr enough to carry this team

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I would say no. But Cooper had 7 tds in 11 games, that would equate to about 10 in a full 16 games if all other things were equal, but Cooper didn't have a full off season, camp and a full preseason with Dak/the offense. So we don't really know at this point if Cooper is better than a 8 td a year receiver.

Would have to factor in Gallup as well, he was a rookie and showed improvement during the year.

I would just as soon have two 8 td receivers instead of a 16 td guy in some ways, your 16 td guy gets hurt and now you're missing a huge td receiver production. But then again it's nice to have the "big play" receiver.

No easy answer...

LACowboysFan1 said:

I would say no. But Cooper had 7 tds in 11 games, that would equate to about 10 in a full 16 games if all other things were equal, but Cooper didn't have a full off season, camp and a full preseason with Dak/the offense. So we don't really know at this point if Cooper is better than a 8 td a year receiver.

Would have to factor in Gallup as well, he was a rookie and showed improvement during the year.

I would just as soon have two 8 td receivers instead of a 16 td guy in some ways, your 16 td guy gets hurt and now you're missing a huge td receiver production. But then again it's nice to have the "big play" receiver.

No easy answer...

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My argument was that Cooper's Scoring production would be good but not enough to make us a potent enough offense. I believe in spreading the ball around and I like Amari Cooper alot. I would still like to have the Three amigos as far as wrs are concerned. Cooper is no Michael Irvin or Dez imo and Gallop is no Alvin Harper so I'm going all in to get another #1 or #2 wr and trading picks or players to get another proven Scoring deep threat wr. Gallop was ok but he he doesn't appear to be a top tier #1 to me. He may develop into a top #2 wr but he looks more like a better #3 option to me .
I'm not counting on Cooper and Gallop to be a dynamic tandem so im going to get a #1 and if it's an Antonio Brown and Cooper tandem I'd like our chances to have a dynamic wr tandem.. I would rather have two dynamic outside wrs then take a shot drafting a steak at te

We can always use Gallop. It's Daks last year to have weapons. We need another 8+ TD a year weapon and more rb depth to replace rod Smith and the rest is all dl and safety . That's about the only shot imo of being able to compete with our everydown te scheme now that I sit back and look at need. I can live with a mediocre everydown tes if we got two #1 wrs And a decent #3.

Wr trade
Rb draft
Safety draft
Dline draft

That replaces Beasely, Hurns, Rod Smith, crawford Irving, and gets us a returner for Sts gives Zeke some help Shores up our dline and our secondary

I'm cutting Lee, olawazie, Austin, Beasely, Hurns, Smith, Crawford Swaim to make room for higher salaries
The tes will just have to wait. What's the odds of us drafting a day one starter at that position lol.

But I do agree with you about having two 9 td receivers versus A 15 TD superstar .

CowboysExchange said:

Cooper is no Michael Irvin or Dez imo and Gallop is no Alvin Harper so I'm going all in to get another #1 or #2 wr and trading picks or players to get another proven Scoring deep threat wr.

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Think it's too early to tell, most receivers take a year, sometimes 2, to get acclimated to the NFL. And playing together for a length of time, with the same quarterback can be a big part of a dynamic passing game.

We'll see this year how it goes...

LACowboysFan1 said:

Think it's too early to tell, most receivers take a year, sometimes 2, to get acclimated to the NFL. And playing together for a length of time, with the same quarterback can be a big part of a dynamic passing game.

We'll see this year how it goes...

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Dallas needs to make a splash in Free agency and get another top receiver. If you are a true #1 wr you're gonna make an impact really Quick .if I get a shot to get a great #1 to compliment Amari I'm going all in. You know Jerrah is gonna try his best to suit up a 4-5 Td a year te core that can blockbon passing downs loc But I'd take a stud 8+TD te if he was available. We're losing Beasely and Austin they aren't getting any snaps and Jerrah isn't gonna pay for spot players like passing offenses will who value their slot wrs more than their tes. I figure Cooper will be great but he's just 1 skilled player and other than him and Zeke we don't have any proven black and white production and Scoring outside of Dak and Zeke w 6 TDS each I think .

Gallop got 2 and Beasely 3 so we're already gonna be losing some of Beasely production. I don't get why we can't get any scoring PRODUCTION out of our slot wr and Te Core every year for about 5 years it's just been dwindling to subpar levels. I'm not sure exactly why. It looked like it was a speed issue at first glance but even w Cooper we only got 6 TDS eachefrom Dak and zeke which isn't that great for Zeke so the blocking must not be there. His first year Zeke could score

For a back who got as many touches and yards this year he didn't score like it and we certainly had a points problem all year in every skilled position

CowboysExchange said:

Dallas needs to make a splash in Free agency and get another top receiver. If you are a true #1 wr you're gonna make an impact really Quick .if I get a shot to get a great #1 to compliment Amari I'm going all in. You know Jerrah is gonna try his best to suit up a 4-5 Td a year te core that can blockbon passing downs loc But I'd take a stud 8+TD te if he was available. We're losing Beasely and Austin they aren't getting any snaps and Jerrah isn't gonna pay for spot players like passing offenses will who value their slot wrs more than their tes. I figure Cooper will be great but he's just 1 skilled player and other than him and Zeke we don't have any proven black and white production and Scoring outside of Dak and Zeke w 6 TDS each I think .

Gallop got 2 and Beasely 3 so we're already gonna be losing some of Beasely production. I don't get why we can't get any scoring PRODUCTION out of our slot wr and Te Core every year for about 5 years it's just been dwindling to subpar levels. I'm not sure exactly why. It looked like it was a speed issue at first glance but even w Cooper we only got 6 TDS eachefrom Dak and zeke which isn't that great for Zeke so the blocking must not be there. His first year Zeke could score

For a back who got as many touches and yards this year he didn't score like it and we certainly had a points problem all year in every skilled position

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Really think it comes down probably 75% to coaching, the best receiver in the world can't do much if the defenses know what patterns and plays he is going to run. In 2017 Julio Jones had 88 receptions for 1,444 yards and only 3 tds. Obviously with that many catches you should have more than 3 tds. Not really an aberration of a year, in 2014 he had 104 receptions for 1,593 yards and only 6 tds. Yet he's clearly a no. 1 receiver.

As far as Zeke's scoring he didn't get the in-close opportunities to score, many here have complained that the Cowboys run the ball far too little when the ball's inside the 10 or 20. Again, that's coaching for the most part.

I'm not convinced that we don't have the receivers necessary to have better offense in general, and better td percentage in the red zone.

Hopefully Moore can improve that, but that's a lot of hope...