The effects of relying on unreliable people

kskboys

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One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:
  • Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
  • We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
  • If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.
The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

Not sure I could agree any more.

Hey, on a personal level, I feel sorry for them and I wish them the best. However, I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan and do not know these guys personally. So, my interest is in how they can help the Cowboys. I hope Irving and Gregory both have a nice, productive life. Just not here.

And yes, this is absolutely a horrid way to try and build a team.
 

Hawkeye19

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One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:
  • Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
  • We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
  • If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.
The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.

Great post. Agree 100%.

The FO is enamored with acquiring talent as cheaply as possible-- so guys coming off injury or players with off-field issues are sought after. It is a high risk/high reward transaction-- but it is also short-sighted for all the reasons you have laid out in your post.

You'd think they'd learn after a while... but we keep making the same mistakes and getting the same results.
 

kskboys

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Yep

But this is why Jerry considers himself such a valuable asset as GM. Because he can take these type of risk that other GM’s couldn’t survive from.

It is what it is. I don’t expect it to stop if there’s another opportunity. Not as long as he hits on some of them like Jaylon and Lee who were injury risk not drug related.

Just last year while Gregory was making a contribution finally , we were applauding Jerry.

It all goes back to why Jerry wants to be GM.
I was not.
 

kskboys

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Irving was picked up off a practice squad and we never gave him a big contract. Gregory was a gamble with a 2nd round pick - so was Smith but nobody is complaining about that. Taco was just a bad pick. Wasted a 1st rounder on a bad player.
Adam Jones. Justin Smith.

Any idea what those two have in common? I'll give you a hint. They were FA's in the same year. Guess which one we chased? Guess what Justin led his team to?
 

Diehardblues

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To average out his "suckage" from the first half of his contract.
That’s ridiculous. He either becomes a starter or he doesn’t.

He doesn’t have to be as great as Ware to be worthy of his pick.

If he can’t break the starting lineup then he’ll be a bust.
 

Diehardblues

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Gregory was a bad decision from the beginning but Jerry has to stay invested all of the way thru. Fans just get too attached and become fickle floating back and forth.

The 2nd round picks we used on Gregory and Jaylon might have been enough cumulatively at the time to overcome the Packers in the playoffs. That’s the risk that was taken by not having sounder picks at those spots who could have contributed immediately and consistently.

Gregory is of course a total flop and Jaylon has emerged but we don’t get those opportunities back.
 

GenoT

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Good post, Bob.

Another way the “unreliable” have impacted the Cowboys is that the coaches, particularly HC Garrett and DC Marinelli — both the straight-laced sort — have had to depend upon players who they might not have wanted on their team to begin with, given their druthers. How many times has Garrett’s early RKG pronouncements been undercut by one or more of these problem-guys messing the bed?

Jerry Jones’ well-documented penchant for gambling on “off-field issue players with talent” hasn’t done his coaching staff any favors.
 

Diehardblues

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Good post, Bob.

Another way the “unreliable” have impacted the Cowboys is that the coaches, particularly HC Garrett and DC Marinelli — both the straight-laced sort — have had to depend upon players who they might not have wanted on their team to begin with, given their druthers. How many times has Garrett’s early RKG pronouncements been undercut by one or more of these problem-guys messing the bed?

Jerry Jones’ well-documented penchant for gambling on “off-field issue players with talent” hasn’t done his coaching staff any favors.
Absolutely!!

It’s why it’s about overcoming the front office decisions.Its truly amazing the coaching staff has maintained the culture they have despite all of these distractions and probably is Garretts greatest attribute as HC.
 

gjkoeppen

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I agree, yet some are still willing to give Taco a pass, after the fact and he was drafted even higher than Jaylon. Jaylon does seem to be all that and a bag of chips now. Taco would have to play at almost Ware level to justify the first round pick value before the end of his first contract.

I agree. Taco hasn't played anywhere close to his draft status.
.
 

Kaiser

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People were whining about Lawrence until his third year.

Exactly, Byron Jones too but the position changes were obviously part of that.

I think Lael Collins is the next guy that could break out, though he hasn't had the "cut this bum" posts that DLaw did.
 

xwalker

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Not sure I could agree any more.

Hey, on a personal level, I feel sorry for them and I wish them the best. However, I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan and do not know these guys personally. So, my interest is in how they can help the Cowboys. I hope Irving and Gregory both have a nice, productive life. Just not here.

And yes, this is absolutely a horrid way to try and build a team.

Irving was "free" to acquire and did contribute prior to 2018.

Gregory only negative was weed/depression.

He actually had a good character profile other than the weed/depression issues. He is very intelligent from a pure IQ perspective. Emotions make smart people do dumb things.

He checked all of the boxes physically to be a top 10 pick if not for the weed issue.

I'm OK that they took a chance on Gregory as long as they don't make those types of picks too often.

In regards to Irving, they can sign as many of those types as they want because there was not guaranteed money involved when they acquired him off KC's practice squad.
 

Jumbo075

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One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:
  • Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
  • We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
  • If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.
The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.
The premise is wrong. The Cowboys never RELIED on David Irving or Randy Gregory. They always had others to play in their stead. What they did was take a chance on some supremely talented players. Irving was a guy they plucked off the Chiefs practice squad. I don't understand why anyone is bent out of shape about the Cowboys giving the guy a chance. Gregory was a projected top 10 pick, but the Cowboys didn't take him until pick 60, late in the 2nd round. That's a reasonable risk. But when you look at their personnel, the Cowboys have never put themselves in a position of relying on either player. Even last year, with Gregory finally breaking into the starting lineup, they had Charlton, Armstrong, and Crawford available to take over if Gregory got suspended.

As for Taco Charlton, the scouting report on him was that he'd take at least 3 years to develop and that the upside was a Justin Tuck type of guy. In the past 9 drafts, they've missed on 2 first round picks - Claiborne and Charlton. That is a 77.8% success rate - much higher than the typical 50% bust rate for first round picks. Personally, I would have picked Awuzie in the 1st round, but they were trying to build depth at DE. It is still possible that Charlton takes a step up in his 3rd season.

Even now, Gregory is a low risk player. His contract rolled over, so this is his final year on a rookie contract. If he isn't allowed to play this year, then his contract will roll over again. After that, he'll be a restricted free agent, who the Cowboys can sign cheaply. As for Irving, he quit because he doesn't like football, and it was never his dream to play. That's a choice a free man in America gets to make. He hasn't cost the Cowboys anything for giving him a chance. It's not like having Irving stopped them from acquiring other players.

Finally, getting to Robert Quinn. He'd be a wise signing even if Gregory had not gotten suspended again. Blame the lack of development of Taco Charlton for that. But with Lawrence wanting to break the bank, getting Quinn is a good idea. Sign Quinn for a moderate 3-year deal, and it gives the Cowboys the option of letting Lawrence walk after this season, and collecting a 3rd round compensation pick. Quinn is still only 28 years old, and is a better scheme fit in Dallas than in Miami. And he might even be a better pure pass rusher than Lawrence, though not as good against the run.

All this wailing and gnashing of teeth over disappointing players is fruitless. They are disappointing because they never lived up to their potential. But if the team never relied exclusively on them, which the Cowboys did not, and if the cost was low, which it was, then it is more satisfying to be thankful for the flashes of excellence they provided than it is to be bitter over the lost opportunities. Without them, the Cowboys would have had some mediocre play ALL the time, instead of only part of the time. In other words, even with the disappointment, the Cowboys only gained. They didn't lose.

Put another way, the going rate in the NFL is $1M per sack per season. Randy Gregory's rookie contract is under $4M. He's only been paid $2.36M for 7 sacks, a little over $300K per sack, which is a bargain. Gregory's total compensation is less than the signing bonuses the Cowboys gave to Nolan Carroll and Allen Hurns, neither of whom have delivered the value Gregory has. It is less than the Cowboys paid Tavon Austin last season for 8 receptions.

David Irving has cost the Cowboys $3.58M for 7 sacks and 5 forced fumbles. Again, that is about $300K per splash play - a bargain in the NFL. So it is sad that these two players have had issues that kept them from achieving what they are capable of doing. But the cost has been very low in NFL terms, and they've more than compensated the Cowboys for the investment made.

So, if you must, mourn the lost potential. But don't believe for a second that this has been a net negative experience for the Cowboys. They've more than recouped their investment.
 
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erod

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Irving proved to be an elite interior rusher. Gregory was a top 5 draft talent. I would take those risks again if similar situations came up, especially for premium position players.

Just because you take those guys does not mean you need to depend on them. If you take these riskier players you can still reinforce the position group through draft/trade/FA to protect yourself.

Obviously every situation should be looked at specifically but to look at Irving and Gregory with 20/20 hindsight is not fair. They were both calculated risks and I believe were worth the shot.

You forgot Rolando McClain and Greg Hardy.

Jerry loves him some losers.
 

gjkoeppen

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The premise is wrong. The Cowboys never RELIED on David Irving or Randy Gregory. They always had others to play in their stead. What they did was take a chance on some supremely talented players. Irving was a guy they plucked off the Chiefs practice squad. I don't understand why anyone is bent out of shape about the Cowboys giving the guy a chance. Gregory was a projected top 10 pick, but the Cowboys didn't take him until pick 60, late in the 2nd round. That's a reasonable risk. But when you look at their personnel, the Cowboys have never put themselves in a position of relying on either player. Even last year, with Gregory finally breaking into the starting lineup, they had Charlton, Armstrong, and Crawford available to take over if Gregory got suspended..

First off Irvin already had a strike against him when the Cowboys signed him. Players don't get suspended until the 2nd strike. So he already had TWO chances. Then the Cowboys gave him another strike and it wasn't until he did it again that they finally got rid of him. Also he missed most of the games he could have played last season with a sprained ankle?

First round picks are not the picks to CHANCE that off the field issues will forever go away. He may have had the talent but he proved he can't be trusted with his off the field problems.
.
 

G2

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What team doesn't bring in risky players?
 

Jumbo075

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What team doesn't bring in risky players?

Point taken. The Browns drafted Antonio Callaway last year with his off-the field baggage. And so far this year, they've traded for locker room head case OBJ, and signed woman-beater Kareem Hunt. I've heard many saying the Browns are the favorite in the AFC North, and that they are more talented than the Cowboys.
 

Cannibal_Cowboy

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One of the most important lessons any decent NFL front office understands is this: the most important ability after playing ability is RELIABILITY. The recent problems we are having trying to upgrade our talent at DL are directly related to Jerry’s foolish habit of relying on talented but unreliable players for too long.

In fact one of the cornerstones of building a championship team (or any organization of excellence) is the idea that you only build with reliable people. I believe in giving anyone a second chance. But not 4th, 5th chances. Being too accepting of unreliable people because of their potential is a cancer if you let it stick around.

When the Cowboys drafted Randy Gregory in 2015 with their 2nd round pick, it was well known that he had major problems with bipolar depression, weed and alcohol. I don’t knock Randy Gregory for that. He has major life challenges that are way more important than football. But the Cowboys have had 4 seasons to decide on what he is and it’s way past time to say goodbye. RG has now been suspended four times, the latest being indefinite. This isn’t three strikes, it’s four.

David Irving is another guy with a checkered past that we counted on for three seasons because of his enormous talent. But like Randy Gregory his off the field habits and problems could not keep him from being suspended. After his latest suspension, the FO finally said enough is enough.

But look at the effects of relying on the unreliable:
  • Caused us to Draft Taco Charleton in 2017- a guy we probably wouldn’t have taken had we already said bye to RG, or maybe if we had never drafted RG in the first place.
  • We are currently trying to make a deal (and use needed cap space) to acquire a guy like Robert Quinn because of no RG and/or DI. Cause and effect.
  • If we end up using cap space to solve the lack of DE help, it may have effects with cap space for some other players we need and want to keep.
The bottom line is this: This Owner/GM/FO’s willingness to give talented players with multiple suspensions and consistent off field problems too many chances has a ripple effect on how you draft and address free agency.

It’s ok to give second chances to talented people. But stop there. Or you will be creating new problems rather than solving current ones.
Spot on bro!
And all this time they spout the "RKG" b.s, yet rely on guys who can't keep their crap together.
 
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