Do you really need 20 Million DE's?

RodeoJake · Mar 28, 2019

I wouldn't have a problem paying him 20 mil per if he was DWare good, but he ain't.

Future · Mar 28, 2019

I'd rather pay $20m for a top-5 edge than $14m for a top-5 guard.

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
Yeah, *if* they're still making the playoffs.

As to where it has gotten us, it's to the divisional playoffs for 3 of the last 5 years, with one of the failed years being the no QB year. It got us a winning record and 2 divisional playoff games for the last 3 years, and that's while we wore down a mountain of dead cap and we the team with the youngest starters in the league (or so someone said on the forum recently).

We're reaching the end of the 2016 haul playing cheap. That was a big haul. Should we complain about that? Only 1 guy from that draft isn't still on the team. Tapper.

Could have gone farther but for a weak coaching staff and the team's unwillingness to really run Dak.

"Could have", but the point remains, we didn't.

It's yet another opportunity wasted under the Garrett years. Like the careers of Ware, Romo, and Witten.

All of this great drafting and smart cap management has still resulted in no winning of consequence.

DallasMike · Mar 28, 2019

MyFairLady said:
The odds of that contract ending in favor of the Dallas Cowboys are almost nil. With the shoulder injury we may not even get much in year 1. Odds of getting value only decrease after year 1.

I agree with you. Great pointing out that after year 1 the value decreases. Imagine years 3 & 4. Losing that 1st year because of surgery, delayed in fact, is big. I still can't like posts yet, but yours a good one

Diehardblues · Mar 28, 2019

For the sake of argument : what will be the effects in our defense without a pass rush?

And if our defense falls back to average or below what will those effects be on an offense which was below average?

Hook'em#11 · Mar 28, 2019

He get his surgery done yet? No?

Yeah, 20 million? Bahahaahahahhahaaa

Diehardblues · Mar 28, 2019

stasheroo said:
"Could have", but the point remains, we didn't.

It's yet another opportunity wasted under the Garrett years. Like the careers of Ware, Romo, and Witten.

All of this great drafting and smart cap management has still resulted in no winning of consequence.

The problem is there’s been enough risk and poor decisions to thwart some of the better efforts we’ve had in assembling a team.

Missing on Claiborne, Taco and Escobar for example in early rounds which dont even take into account the more direct Risk which have failed. We take two steps forward and one step back.

There has been some better decisions but not enough. Still too many missteps to build a greater team.

buybuydandavis · Mar 28, 2019

stasheroo said:
We all hope so. But that group needs a serious bounce back season if this team is to have any success. If not, it's time to start rethinking the huge investments being made there.

Next year it's Collins gone. I don't expect much question over Frederick, Martin, or Tyron next year, as long as they stay reasonably healthy this year. The base salaries are all reasonable. We're not replacing them for less.

Every time I look at the free agent signings, they look a little bit better than the news. Fletcher is really just a 3 mil contract this year, cut for next year. That's fine.

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

Diehardblues said:
For the sake of argument : what will be the effects in our defense without a pass rush?

And if our defense falls back to average or below what will those effects be on an offense which was below average?

We can look at all of that cap space we still have - while we go 6-10.
:omg:

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

Diehardblues said:
The problem is there’s been enough risk and poor decisions to thwart some of the better efforts we’ve had in assembling a team.

Missing on Claiborne, Taco and Escobar for example in early rounds which dont even take into account the more direct Risk which have failed. We take two steps forward and one step back.

There has been some better decisions but not enough. Still too many missteps to build a greater team.

And relying on the unreliable, like Gregory and Irving.

Add the Taco Charlton miss - and YES it is a miss - and you're locked in to paying Lawrence, and that includes what might be a slight overpay.

Diehardblues · Mar 28, 2019

stasheroo said:
We can look at all of that cap space we still have - while we go 6-10.

Right..

We’re placing the balance of the season basically over 2 million $$.

I applaud tough negotiating but the price went up when we lost Gregory and Irving. That’s the cost of those bad decisions.

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
Next year it's Collins gone. I don't expect much question over Frederick, Martin, or Tyron next year, as long as they stay reasonably healthy this year. The base salaries are all reasonable. We're not replacing them for less.

All three need to raise their level of play back up to their usual standards, and how they're being paid. None of them played as well last year as they have in the past. And the offense overall struggled as a direct result. If not, it's time to reconsider what's they're being paid and the return on investment.

Every time I look at the free agent signings, they look a little bit better than the news. Fletcher is really just a 3 mil contract this year, cut for next year. That's fine.

Who's Fletcher?

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

Diehardblues said:
Right..

We’re placing the balance of the season basically over 2 million $$.

I applaud tough negotiating but the price went up when we lost Gregory and Irving. That’s the cost of those bad decisions.

And the cost of waiting a year to get a deal done with Lawrence. Where in the meantime, new record contracts were signed by two of the league's top pass rushers.

The cost of another bad decision.

Diehardblues · Mar 28, 2019

stasheroo said:
And relying on the unreliable, like Gregory and Irving.

Add the Taco Charlton miss - and YES it is a miss - and you're locked in to paying Lawrence, and that includes what might be a slight overpay.

Yep
If Taco is a hit and Gregory is here. We have the luxory of letting Lawrence walk or trade him.

But we don’t . Suck it up and try to save elsewhere. Let’s get him signed so he can have surgery and not miss any games.

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

Diehardblues said:
Yep
If Taco is a hit and Gregory is here. We have the luxory of letting Lawrence walk or trade him.

But we don’t . Suck it up and try to save elsewhere. Let’s get him signed so he can have surgery and not miss any games.

McKDaddy · Mar 28, 2019

stasheroo said:
And the cost of waiting a year to get a deal done with Lawrence. Where in the meantime, new record contracts were signed by two of the league's top pass rushers.

The cost of another bad decision.

was that really a bad decision? They guy has had suspensions & injuries. I can't fault them for asking for another year's worth of production before committing to him long term ...

Bottom line, in my opinion, is you made a decision not to commit last year knowing it could cost you more this year but that you would be ok with that in return for the additional info. Only thing that changed is you HAVE offered the player significantly more and he is still refusing.

So, even a good decision on your part doesn't always ensure you get what you wanted.

Denim Chicken · Mar 28, 2019

coult44 said:
Look, I'm a big Tank guy. Y'all also know I'm a HUGE "hate the FO" guy. So keep that in mind when I bring this to your attention.

I looked at the top 10 defenses in the NFL last season. Out of those 10 teams, only two of them paid their RDE and LDE a combined salary of more than 18 Million dollars. That's for both sides people. Minnesota, and Houston. Pittsburgh would make 3 but I wanted to stay top ten ranked defensive teams.

So tell me what I'm missing here? As much as I know we need quality first tier guys at several positions, do we want 23 million wrapped up in one where the highest paid player at that position doesn't get his team into the top ten in defense??? Are we good enough every where else to justify this?

Again, I like Tank, I knew from the beginning he was the War Daddy Jerry dreamed of. But paying him over 20 million a year doesn't ensure nothing. All it really does is create a scapegoat when things go south!!!

Well, every team is created differently. If you have a stud DE on a rookie deal like the Chargers, of coarse it is going to save money.

You also have to look at who they played. So if you look at DVOA, the top ten defenses are CHI, BUF, BAL, MIN, DEN, JAX, HOU, LAC, DAL, & IND.

Off the to top my head, CHI, DEN, DAL, MIN, HOU should have DE / OLBs combos that are approaching, if not significalty exceeding, $18MM.

IND was the 10th best defense and just spent $14MM on Justin Houston so they should be getting close

JAX & LAC have stud rushers that are still on rookie deals.

BUF & BAL are what is left.

So the majority of good defense teams have to spend money on edge.

Stash · Mar 28, 2019

McKDaddy said:
was that really a bad decision? They guy has had suspensions & injuries. I can't fault them for asking for another year's worth of production before committing to him long term ...

In retrospect? It most certainly was. And it cost them the $17 million on the cap last year, and over $20 million a year going forward, when prior to the Mack and Donald deals, the going rate was $18 million.

Bottom line, in my opinion, is you made a decision not to commit last year knowing it could cost you more this year but that you would be ok with that in return for the additional info. Only thing that changed is you HAVE offered the player significantly more and he is still refusing.

So, even a good decision on your part doesn't always ensure you get what you wanted.

I don't know if you saw it, but it's come out that the Cowboys first tried to lowball Lawrence and offered just $17 million a year. That's insulting to the player and that's on them. Their fault. That's why we're here at this point.

G2 · Mar 28, 2019

Future said:
I'd rather pay $20m for a top-5 edge than $14m for a top-5 guard.

Who plays longer?

JustChip · Mar 28, 2019

agk136 said:
I say try to trade him or let him go. This team can not put that much money into a non-QB. We have too many other players we need to try to keep. If any player is not willing to give a little to keep a good team intact and is looking only for the money then I'd prefer they tell him goodbye. Nothing good is going to come out of this situation if they end up paying him 22+ a year.

It's more likely nothing good will come out of this situation either way. It's likely he doesn't live up to the 20 or 22 per year here. And it's just as likely that, should they trade him or let him walk, the defense will suffer in the near-term.

IMO, the best-case is if a trade could be worked out for a 1st round pick to a non-division opponent.

One thing is certain, there will be fans complaining whichever way this thing goes.

Do you really need 20 Million DE's?

RodeoJake

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Future

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Stash

DallasMike

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Diehardblues

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Hook'em#11

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Diehardblues

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buybuydandavis

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Stash

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Diehardblues

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Diehardblues

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McKDaddy

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Denim Chicken

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G2

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JustChip

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