Is Garrett the best evaluator of talent we have ever had?

Manster_Mash · Apr 5, 2019

Is this a joke??

Manster_Mash · Apr 5, 2019

GoCowboysGo said:
No, not by a long shot, that would be Gil Brandt, second would be Jimmy Johnson and third would be Will McClay.

BTW, what exactly does Garrett do here?

I would include Tom Landry and Bill Parcells in there as well.

Diehardblues · Apr 5, 2019

Sydla said:
You tend to overstate the dysfunction that Jones brings to Dallas. And like I said a page back, then come the nebulous things like "Jerry has created a situation that isn't about wins and losses............"

That really doesn't even make sense. No, Jerry Jones did not create a situation where we need to judge success based on things like player evaluations and team culture. This is just another example of a Garrett supporter trying to muddy the waters and not deal with the real issues that face our average HC.

Your entitled to your opinion but the post above expresses mine. This is usually where members become frustrated and want to make it personal but I’ve stayed true to my stance for years .

Here’s the post if you missed it.

“If Jerry truly places a priority on winning he’d bring in a legit HC , GM, VP and get out of the way.

Until he does I’ll continue arguing this is the best scenario I’ve seen since Jimmy left.”

Jumbo075 · Apr 5, 2019

Sydla said:
That's kind of false. He's built a team that's really no better than the ones Wade Phillips was involved with. In 4 years, Phillips won the division twice and failed to make it out of the divisional round, just like Garrett.

I think people forget how good Phillips first three years in Dallas were. They only remember the bottoming out season in Year 4 that got him fired.

Wade didn't build those teams. Parcells did.

Sydla · Apr 5, 2019

Diehardblues said:
Your entitled to your opinion but the post above expresses mine. This is usually where members become frustrated and want to make it personal but I’ve stayed true to my stance for years .

Here’s the post if you missed it.

If Jerry truly places a priority on winning he’d bring in a legit HC , GM, VP and get out of the way.

Until he does I’ll continue arguing this is the best scenario I’ve seen since Jimmy left.

Of course Jerry should bring in a new HC and a new GM.

But this is far from the best set up since Jimmy has left considering Jason has really done zero to distinguish himself from the Phillips teams for example. He's just been lucky enough to be really friendly with the Jones family thus making it hard for them to fire him, which they probably should have done years ago.

Whyjerry · Apr 5, 2019

Diehardblues said:
What you define as nothing is actually something more.

Fans are assuming this team should have done more. Like we’ve had championship caliber teams which have under achieved.

Not sure where you are going but if Garrett was a talent guru should that mean the rosters were championship caliber.

Going back to the 8-8 teams. Every year they missed the playoffs by a game. Those all should have been 10 win playoff teams with Romo getting shot. Instead you had Garrett doing the Arizona or Baltimore thing. Every year.

Sydla · Apr 5, 2019

Jumbo075 said:
Wade didn't build those teams. Parcells did.

The general point here is that what Garrett has built (and frankly, I think people overstate how influential he is in "building" this team) is not really better than a few of those Phillips teams. Parcells building those teams doesn't change the real point though.

Diehardblues · Apr 5, 2019

Sydla said:
Of course Jerry should bring in a new HC and a new GM.

But this is far from the best set up since Jimmy has left considering Jason has really done zero to distinguish himself from the Phillips teams for example. He's just been lucky enough to be really friendly with the Jones family thus making it hard for them to fire him, which they probably should have done years ago.

That’s all part of those intangible factors for Garrett.

Diehardblues · Apr 5, 2019

Whyjerry said:
Not sure where you are going but if Garrett was a talent guru should that mean the rosters were championship caliber.

Going back to the 8-8 teams. Every year they missed the playoffs by a game. Those all should have been 10 win playoff teams with Romo getting shot. Instead you had Garrett doing the Arizona or Baltimore thing. Every year.

If you go back and evaluate those 8-8 seasons we had defenses which statistically were some of the worst in Cowboy history and rivaled futilities in NFL history with teams that hadn’t won more than 4 or 5 games. Basically while we were rebuilding or retooling Romo carried a 4 or 5 win team to 8-8 records and contention for the division.

And while Garrett has been instrumental in building this roster I wouldn’t say it’s championship caliber. We have a couple areas which are not that level and why we haven’t advanced further .

Jumbo075 · Apr 5, 2019

Bottom Line: Garrett deserves credit for convincing the Jones Family to change their philosophy of team building. The collaborative process they now use is a direct result of Garrett's influence. It's just plain wrong to refuse to credit Garrett because they use a team approach to selecting players - when Garrett was the primary mover in creating the current philosophy and method of player selection. A good leader doesn't have to make all the individual decisions and be a control freak. If he can cause a good system to be put in place, and select the right people to operate that system, then he should get credit for that.

Again, Garrett has a lot of shortcomings as a coach. But refusing to give him credit for the change in how the Cowboys are building the team is just ridiculous. Stephen Jones is about the same age as Garrett, grew up with him in the game when Garrett was a backup QB, and Stephen was a backup GM, and is likely the biggest proponent of the Garrett philosophy. It was Stephen who went to bat for Garrett when he was still OC, and it was likely Stephen that convinced Jerry to hire Garrett as OC back in 2007 - because Stephen believed in him and his philosophy. If you're going to give credit to Stephen Jones, then the root of his philosophy comes from Garrett.

However much I might agree that the Cowboys need a change at the Head Coaching position to achieve more Super Bowl success, I refuse to cover my eyes, and not recognize Jason Garrett for what he's done right.

cowboyblue22 · Apr 5, 2019

Diehardblues said:
If Jerry truly places a priority on winning he’d bring in a legit HC , GM, VP and get out of the way.

Until he does I’ll continue arguing this is the best scenario I’ve seen since Jimmy left.

really glad u are happy with average my self I kinda like to see the cowboys in the nfc championship game or super bowl once or twice every twenty years

Sydla · Apr 5, 2019

Jumbo075 said:
Bottom Line: Garrett deserves credit for convincing the Jones Family to change their philosophy of team building. The collaborative process they now use is a direct result of Garrett's influence. It's just plain wrong to refuse to credit Garrett because they use a team approach to selecting players - when Garrett was the primary mover in creating the current philosophy and method of player selection. A good leader doesn't have to make all the individual decisions and be a control freak. If he can cause a good system to be put in place, and select the right people to operate that system, then he should get credit for that.

Again, Garrett has a lot of shortcomings as a coach. But refusing to give him credit for the change in how the Cowboys are building the team is just ridiculous. Stephen Jones is about the same age as Garrett, grew up with him in the game when Garrett was a backup QB, and Stephen was a backup GM, and is likely the biggest proponent of the Garrett philosophy. It was Stephen who went to bat for Garrett when he was still OC, and it was likely Stephen that convinced Jerry to hire Garrett as OC back in 2007 - because Stephen believed in him and his philosophy. If you're going to give credit to Stephen Jones, then the root of his philosophy comes from Garrett.

However much I might agree that the Cowboys need a change at the Head Coaching position to achieve more Super Bowl success, I refuse to cover my eyes, and not recognize Jason Garrett for what he's done right.

And it's plain wrong to not hang the failures partially on him as well.

Again, Will McClay is in his current position because of the flaws in the system that you want to give Garrett credit for helping the Jones build.

Whyjerry · Apr 5, 2019

Diehardblues said:
If you go back and evaluate those 8-8 seasons we had defenses which statistically were some of the worst in Cowboy history and rivaled futilities in NFL history with teams that hadn’t won more than 4 or 5 games. Basically while we were rebuilding or retooling Romo carried a 4 or 5 win team to 8-8 records and contention for the division.

And while Garrett has been instrumental in building this roster I wouldn’t say it’s championship caliber. We have a couple areas which are not that level and why we haven’t advanced further .

It is an absolute truth that those Romo teams should have at least made the playoffs. You never know what could happen there. Defenses were bad that is for sure but Garrett’s ineptitude cost them games that cost them playoff births.

Hailmary · Apr 5, 2019

JayFord said:
Garrett is a master motivator I’ll give him that

He just can’t do much else

Precisely why I think he'd destroy at the collegiate level. He'll get good recruits as well. Parents will eat up whatever he's selling.

Diehardblues · Apr 5, 2019

cowboyblue22 said:
really glad u are happy with average my self I kinda like to see the cowboys in the nfc championship game or super bowl once or twice every twenty years

I didn’t say I was happy with it. We’ve came closer than I thought we would.

There’s never a guarantee going to Super Bowls. I think too many fans came to believe just because we went to 8 of the first 30 that it was the norm.

Diehardblues · Apr 5, 2019

Whyjerry said:
It is an absolute truth that those Romo teams should have at least made the playoffs. You never know what could happen there. Defenses were bad that is for sure but Garrett’s ineptitude cost them games that cost them playoff births.

That’s an opinion not a fact.

cowboyblue22 · Apr 5, 2019

for Broaddus to make a statement like this just shows how limited his intelligence about the nfl is no wonder he couldn't make it as a scout tom landry gil brandt and jimmy Johnson are in a different league than garrett Jason is playing high school football while they were playing professional foot ball

Jumbo075 · Apr 5, 2019

Sydla said:
And it's plain wrong to not hang the failures partially on him as well.

Again, Will McClay is in his current position because of the flaws in the system that you want to give Garrett credit for helping the Jones build.

I agree that Garrett should be held responsible for his flaws. But this thread is NOT about Garrett's flaws. If you cannot objectively have a conversation about what Garrett does right, then how can you be trusted to have an honest conversation about what he does wrong. You have to be able to recognize both. And you should be able to have a conversation about Garrett's strengths without the constant "but, but, but" about his flaws.

I thought I was quite clear that I'm ready to move on from Garrett as Head Coach. "But, but, but" he still has some strengths.

UncleBlazer · Apr 5, 2019

xwalker said:
Maybe he was talking about Jim Garrett (Jason's Dad).

I think Garrett helped get Will McClay promoted and I think Garrett lets McClay and the scouting dept do their jobs.

The only draft picks I specifically remember that Garrett wanted were:
MartyB
Floyd the DT in the draft where they traded down and took Fredrick.

The credit for Dak goes to Wade Wilson.

Garrett over-ruled Bill Callahan on the starting RT. Callahan was the best position coach they've have had this decade and an expert on the OLine but Garrett thought he knew more about the OL than Callahan. Due to injury, the backup eventually played and was better than the starter just like Callahan had said 2 years earlier.

I tend to think Garrett was involved in the backup QBs they obtained in 2015 when Romo was out. Those QBs were big failures.

Garrett did convince Beasley to re-consider quitting during his rookie year. Most HCs would have just let him quit.

Wade Phillips contribution to the draft was LB Jason Williams who couldn't play a lick in the NFL.

Chan Gailey's contribution was convincing Jerry NOT to draft Randy Moss.[/QUOTE

It was also Garrett who pounded the table for Taco

Sydla · Apr 5, 2019

Jumbo075 said:
I agree that Garrett should be held responsible for his flaws. But this thread is NOT about Garrett's flaws. If you cannot objectively have a conversation about what Garrett does right, then how can you be trusted to have an honest conversation about what he does wrong. You have to be able to recognize both. And you should be able to have a conversation about Garrett's strengths without the constant "but, but, but" about his flaws.

I thought I was quite clear that I'm ready to move on from Garrett as Head Coach. "But, but, but" he still has some strengths.

This thread is as much about his flaws in player development/acquisition as his successes. You can't have a discussion about Garrett being a great talent evaluator and having "built" the system (or nudged the Jones along) that now helps select players without pointing out the flaws of the system, the fact that we still have had some flawed rosters, etc.

Is Garrett the best evaluator of talent we have ever had?

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