Things we should be learning from Pats

Flamma

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Just my opinion, but I don't think we can learn anything from the Pats. You can try to mimic them all you want. Their procedure is only part of their success, it's the coaching that is above and beyond. Does anyone think Brady is that much better than every other QB that ever played? They beat the greatest show on turf as what, a 14 point dog? Take this last Super Bowl for example. Is anyone going to remember the 2018 Patriots as having one of the best defenses in history? Absolutely not. Yet they held one of the most prolific offenses of the year to 3 points. Perfect storm here. Elite QB meets Elite coach. Even if the salary cap was removed we will never see a repeat of the last 20 years of Patriots success.
 

xwalker

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Yeah, we try to copy them, but we try to copy their 2 TE sets and obsession w/ CB's. Here's some of the things that really make them successful.

1. Continuously draft OL and DL.
2. Make sure to have replacements in place for players who will want a huge salary.
3. Do the opposite of what most of the NFL is doing. This allows you to find useful players all over the draft. Belly's 3-4 wasn't everywhere, so he was getting players who fit his system all over the draft. When the NFL switched to the 3-4, Belly went back to the 4-3, so he's still finding useful players all over the draft. He was doing that 2 TE set, so when everyone started switching, he's now going for WR's and is using a pass catching RB profusely.
4. Even if they don't play more than half the time, make sure to have a huge dude for the middle, to put a stop to O's like the Rams. Stop that run up the middle, and it's going to be a bit more difficult.
5. Always have a good stout OL in place. Always.
6. Don't overpay players. It kills you pretty quick.

Anything I missed? I know, I know, it helps tremendously to have a top 5 all time HC and QB, I get that. And that's a huge part of why they win. However, there are other things that can be done.

The Cowboys are already following that basic plan.


1. Continuously draft OL and DL.
They've averaged drafting 2 DL per year over the past 4 drafts.
They've obviously put many draft resources into the OLine.


2. Make sure to have replacements in place for players who will want a huge salary.
They've tried to do this with mixed results.
Drafted Gregory (2nd), Taco (1st) and 3 mid-round DEs between drafting DLaw and signing him to a new contract.
They drafted 2 RBs this year.
They're 4 deep at CB but drafted a CB and made another a priority UDFA because Jones/Brown will be free agent next year.
They carried 2 young backup QBs last year, instead of some old QBs with no future.


3. Do the opposite of what most of the NFL is doing. This allows you to find useful players all over the draft. Belly's 3-4 wasn't everywhere, so he was getting players who fit his system all over the draft. When the NFL switched to the 3-4, Belly went back to the 4-3, so he's still finding useful players all over the draft. He was doing that 2 TE set, so when everyone started switching, he's now going for WR's and is using a pass catching RB profusely.
The Cowboys DL scheme accommodates players that don't fit into many other schemes. Quinn at DE, Woods at DT are examples.
(Belichick tends to play both 4-3 and 3-4 concepts in the same seasons. It appears that he just drafts good players then uses the scheme that fits the group of players he ends up with.)


4. Even if they don't play more than half the time, make sure to have a huge dude for the middle, to put a stop to O's like the Rams. Stop that run up the middle, and it's going to be a bit more difficult.
In 2017:
Pats Starting DTs: 315 and 320 pounds
Cowboys Starting DTs: 311 and 318 pounds


As mentioned previously, the Pats stopped the Rams by changes in their scheme more then due to Wow DTs.


5. Always have a good stout OL in place. Always.
The Cowboys have put a max effort into this concept.

6. Don't overpay players. It kills you pretty quick.
The Cowboys have improved the roster while going to being max out against the cap to being in great cap shape.

Hard to define overpay. DLaw and Martin are the current big contracts.
 

sean10mm

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A lot of the Patriots "system" is not getting bogged down in one system or way of looking at things. Everyone pays lip service to adaptability but few people want to do the work of adapting, because it requires that you do exponentially more WORK.

It's like how everybody knows you need to manage the cap, but nobody is as willing to cut their pet players loose as the Patriots are when the value for the dollar is no longer there.

Supposedly Thomas Edison said that people miss opportunity because it wears overalls and looks like work. A lot of NFL organizations have fundamental lack of conviction to what they're doing. Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
 

Hawkeye0202

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We should learn absolutely positively nothing from the Pats. There have been plenty of teams try and learn from them and have failed. All of the ex-assistants that get head coaching jobs implement the Patriots way and it fails.


1000%........It's all about Brady and Belichick 100%. Like trying to duplicate Michael Jordan, just can't do it.....lol.
 

CowboyRoy

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Yes, there is a way. However, it involves very tough decisions and saavy management, which we won't get w/ Jerry in charge.

Giants, PITT, BALT, those guys have consistently contended over the last several years w/o Brady or Belly. How? Get a decent QB, then build your D. From the inside out. That's how you contend.

The Pats are able to avoid paying skill position players big money because they have Brady and he simply makes everyone look incredible. And the Oline doesn't have to be as stout. They can also get lots of good veterans to sign cheap to win a championship with the best QB of all time. This is how they save money. Brady also takes a discount. So instead of being "top heavy" like the Cowboys, they have a collection of good to very good players with little big holes in the roster with scrubs like Jeff Heath.

On Defense, Belli also allows them to avoid huge money. They need a roster full of good players and Brady and Belli take care of the rest.

Cowboys need big time leaders and a handful of great players because they get little leadership from Garrett and the scheme is so bad that they need the players to make it work. No one gets "coached up" here.

So the Cowboys strategy of roster building is night and day then what we have to do here.
 

PhillySpecial

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Yeah, we try to copy them, but we try to copy their 2 TE sets and obsession w/ CB's. Here's some of the things that really make them successful.

1. Continuously draft OL and DL.
2. Make sure to have replacements in place for players who will want a huge salary.
3. Do the opposite of what most of the NFL is doing. This allows you to find useful players all over the draft. Belly's 3-4 wasn't everywhere, so he was getting players who fit his system all over the draft. When the NFL switched to the 3-4, Belly went back to the 4-3, so he's still finding useful players all over the draft. He was doing that 2 TE set, so when everyone started switching, he's now going for WR's and is using a pass catching RB profusely.
4. Even if they don't play more than half the time, make sure to have a huge dude for the middle, to put a stop to O's like the Rams. Stop that run up the middle, and it's going to be a bit more difficult.
5. Always have a good stout OL in place. Always.
6. Don't overpay players. It kills you pretty quick.

Anything I missed? I know, I know, it helps tremendously to have a top 5 all time HC and QB, I get that. And that's a huge part of why they win. However, there are other things that can be done.

The Cowboys have been trying to be the Patriots for several years now.

They drafted Martellus Bennett while Witten was in his prime to emulate Gronkowski and Hernandez. When that didn't work, they doubled down and drafted Escobar in the 2nd round. They gave up on that and moved to trying not having a WR1. They quickly realized that wasn't working and used a 1st round draft pick to trade for Cooper.

Now it looks like they're going to try an imitation of Michel, White, and Burkhead.

It seems the Cowboys should identify who they are and what they want to be. And then go ahead and be the Cowboys instead of trying to be the Patriots. Being the Patriots works for 1 team.
 

kskboys

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The Cowboys have been trying to be the Patriots for several years now.

They drafted Martellus Bennett while Witten was in his prime to emulate Gronkowski and Hernandez. When that didn't work, they doubled down and drafted Escobar in the 2nd round. They gave up on that and moved to trying not having a WR1. They quickly realized that wasn't working and used a 1st round draft pick to trade for Cooper.

Now it looks like they're going to try an imitation of Michel, White, and Burkhead.

It seems the Cowboys should identify who they are and what they want to be. And then go ahead and be the Cowboys instead of trying to be the Patriots. Being the Patriots works for 1 team.
Nicely done.

Problem is, to get that blueprint you need NFL saavy GM and/or HC.
 

Bobhaze

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Yeah, we try to copy them, but we try to copy their 2 TE sets and obsession w/ CB's. Here's some of the things that really make them successful.

1. Continuously draft OL and DL.
2. Make sure to have replacements in place for players who will want a huge salary.
3. Do the opposite of what most of the NFL is doing. This allows you to find useful players all over the draft. Belly's 3-4 wasn't everywhere, so he was getting players who fit his system all over the draft. When the NFL switched to the 3-4, Belly went back to the 4-3, so he's still finding useful players all over the draft. He was doing that 2 TE set, so when everyone started switching, he's now going for WR's and is using a pass catching RB profusely.
4. Even if they don't play more than half the time, make sure to have a huge dude for the middle, to put a stop to O's like the Rams. Stop that run up the middle, and it's going to be a bit more difficult.
5. Always have a good stout OL in place. Always.
6. Don't overpay players. It kills you pretty quick.

Anything I missed? I know, I know, it helps tremendously to have a top 5 all time HC and QB, I get that. And that's a huge part of why they win. However, there are other things that can be done.
7. Their owner learned how to stay out of the football operations. (Still needs to learn how to stay out of certain massage parlors)
 

CowboyRoy

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Just my opinion, but I don't think we can learn anything from the Pats. You can try to mimic them all you want. Their procedure is only part of their success, it's the coaching that is above and beyond. Does anyone think Brady is that much better than every other QB that ever played? They beat the greatest show on turf as what, a 14 point dog? Take this last Super Bowl for example. Is anyone going to remember the 2018 Patriots as having one of the best defenses in history? Absolutely not. Yet they held one of the most prolific offenses of the year to 3 points. Perfect storm here. Elite QB meets Elite coach. Even if the salary cap was removed we will never see a repeat of the last 20 years of Patriots success.

Is Brady much better then other QB's that have played? LOL

Did you really ask that question?

Brady is the best of all time. Anyone that says different is a hater.

Talk all you want about talent yada yada yada...………..Brady has lapped the field.
 

PhillySpecial

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Nicely done.

Problem is, to get that blueprint you need NFL saavy GM and/or HC.

Thanks, kskboys. I was hoping it didn't get come across as being harsh or critical. I waited a while before deciding to hit the post button.

I'd like to know why any coach and/or FO personnel hasn't had any kind of success away from the Patriots. I wonder how much more time Bill O'Brian is going to get with the Texans.
 

CowboyRoy

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Tom Brady is possibly the best QB in NFL history

Dak is not even top 10 among current QBs

Try to let those ideas sink in and marinate a little before you further embarrass yourself

Only a complete moron would try to cut up a 3rd year QB like Prescott by saying he isn't Tom Brady. LOL

Is that all the stupidity you have left in the tank?

-Dak isn't Tom Brady?
-We will never win a championship with Dak?

bla bla bla………..At least you trolls have gotten past the:

-Dak cant throw for more than 200 yards
-Dak cant throw for more than 300 yards
-Dak cant throw for more than 400 yards
-Dak cant make the playoffs
-Dak cant win a playoff game
-Dak is backup material

Any other stupid claims you want to make?

Try to let THIS idea sink in...……………………..DAK is about to sign a big new contract!!!!

:oldcouple::oldcouple::oldcouple::oldcouple::dance::dance::dance::dance::yourock::yourock::yourock::yourock::clap::clap::clap::clap::grin::grin::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave::flagwave:
 

Techsass

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Belichick is in a league of his own as a team builder. Many have tried to emulate him, all have failed. I think a more achievable point of comparison is Howie Roseman.

He's been GM of the Eagles since 2010 (although Reid and Chip Kelly both leave questions about how much power he had, he was in the mix). In that time, they've had 9 first round picks. They've spent one on Wentz, one on Nelson Agholor, and the other 7 on trenches. '

The two hardest things in the game to find are big, athletic men who don't suck at playing football, and quarterbacks who don't suck at playing football. Both go early, and Roseman knows this, and he keeps both loaded to the freaking gills. They drafted LT Andre Dillard in the first round this year, even with two starting tackles firmly in place. Why not; he was the most talented lineman available.

Philly usually loads up on high-athleticism guys in the later rounds, which is something Dallas also does and one area where I think Dallas has it correct. You want to find mid to late round guys who have starter potential. Philly doesn't do this exclusively, there's a couple Donnell Pumphrey type role players they pick, but the focus is definitely on upside.

Then with the salary cap, they take an interesting approach that's both value-focused and maxes out the credit card. Don't know how long they will be able to keep it up, but Roseman is a GD cap wizard, so we will see. That's the part that's hardest to replace - we're a fairly smart team financially but we are not Roseman smart.

Focus on trenches, draft athleticism, value minded, aggressive in FA. I think that's more doable than New England's "get the best DC ever, get a top 5 all time QB playing below market value, and have your coach build a system of interchangeable parts at every position on the field."
He also amazes me with the trades he manages to create. The media absolutely loves them at the start of each season. Everything about them screams that they should be more successful, but for some strange reason they just aren't.
 

Captain43Crash

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Have Dak run the QB sneak, when their is no one over the center. Zek got stuffed vs the Rams in the 4h quarter when Dak should have run the sneak for a gimme 1st down. Brady runs the QB sneak, everytime their is no one over the center on 3rd or 4th and 1. Brady gets the 1st down around 90% of the time, even a higher % vs us. Marinelli, for some lame reason, doesn’t put a D lineman over the center vs Brady on 3rd and 1, at times.

I remember a few years ago vs NE. The announcer mentioned our D was something like 0-25 on 3rd and 1 or less. Our D lines up and their is no one over the center. I yell at the TV get someone over the center. What does Brady do? Runs the QB sneak of course and gains 3 yards.
NE does ALL the little things to avoid losing the game. If you give NE the easiest play in football, the QB sneak, they will take it every time. We do not. Zek has been stuffed more than a couple times with no one over the center on 3rd or 4th and 1. Inexcusable!!
 

kskboys

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Thanks, kskboys. I was hoping it didn't get come across as being harsh or critical. I waited a while before deciding to hit the post button.

I'd like to know why any coach and/or FO personnel hasn't had any kind of success away from the Patriots. I wonder how much more time Bill O'Brian is going to get with the Texans.
Belly is a genius. He's not a great drafter, and he does make personnel mistakes, but it all turns out because of his extreme talent in personnel usage and schemes. He has an amazing ability to get the most out of a player.

You can learn his schemes and such, but you simply cannot teach the ability he has to adapt and even moreso to form his scheme around beating their O. What he did to the Rams O was simply absolutely amazing.
 
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