Let's talk DL

kskboys · Aug 8, 2019

beware_d-ware said:
I still want to see how Daniel Wise does. He's the kind of Z grade player that Rod transforms into a C grade player. Wouldn't be surprise if he makes the 53.

In most years, Wise would've been a mid round draft pick. He had the misfortune of coming in for a draft that was excessively and ridiculously deep at DT.

And he's a bit of an enigma. He doesn't run a great 40, so teams automatically downgrade him. However, his 40 time is similar to fine players like Liuget and Wilkerson, and 40 times are almost irrelevant for DT's anyway. Scouts are all over the place w/ him, but he appears to possess the skillset to succeed inside. To be seen.

kskboys · Aug 8, 2019

quickccc said:
If a late round rookie pick, is already outplaying a former No.1 pick who is already into his 3rd year here in camp, that would be all the more disappointing.
Frankly i'd like to see more than just one good practice from Taco.

I do also wonder about if Taco's guaranteed salary for 2019, would further influence the Cowboys to keep him around this year.
If that comes into play, could that mean a promising young player could get iced out off the roster in favor of salary cap politics ?

I would be majorly POed if we keep Taco due to that if Jackson outplays him. Jackson won't make it on the PS.

Verdict · Aug 8, 2019

Sydla said:
Well you and I have a different definition of "valid" than Marinelli. LOL.

And I have been one that has backed the claim that Crawford was sufficient and that if you cut him, you'd have to eat the dead money and then spend a lot to replace him which would cost what it cost to just keep Crawford around. But they actually found Hyder, got him for fairly cheap, which makes cutting Crawford viable.

If Jackson continues to impress and they try to stash him and lose him, that's gonna suck.

If they like someone at all that plays Crawford’s position he needs to go. He’s not expensive in terms of cap hit anymore, but he’s also not very good.

I’m really tired of hearing about RKGs and high motor guys that never do anything of consequence. I am also tired of “team leaders” being player coaches but not being able to play a lick.

Stash · Aug 8, 2019

kskboys said:
I would be majorly POed if we keep Taco due to that if Jackson outplays him. Jackson won't make it on the PS.

I'd be even more upset if they kept Crawford over either one.

quickccc · Aug 8, 2019

kskboys said:
I would be majorly POed if we keep Taco due to that if Jackson outplays him. Jackson won't make it on the PS.

but i'm not totally sure Jackson's spot could come at the expense of Taco.
Even guys like vet Kerry Hyder have to impress enough to get onto the roster as well.
Which BTW, I thought i'd hear quite a bit more from vet Hyder, (who once had 8.5 sacks in a season with Detroit) in this camp, and it's been quiet about him.
-Have to see something from Kerry in these preseason games, or could this be Kony Ealy (2018 vet FA signee) all over again ?

Stash · Aug 8, 2019

Verdict said:
If they like someone at all that plays Crawford’s position he needs to go. He’s not expensive in terms of cap hit anymore, but he’s also not very good.

I’m really tired of hearing about RKGs and high motor guys that never do anything of consequence. I am also tired of “team leaders” being player coaches but not being able to play a lick.

Exactly!

Too many "team leaders" and "team captains" who aren't actually good at football.

What good is setting an example if you suck during the actual football games?

Jeff Heath may be a great guy that works hard, shows up on time, and roots on his teammates. Doesn't make him a good safety.

Same for Crawford. He may give his all, but his all simply isn't good enough. That's happened with players for as long as the game has existed. Sometimes, even your best isn't good enough.

Qcard · Aug 8, 2019

Future said:
Well then it was a dumb point.

It's a dumb point to include pass rush responsibility to the DL. Ok?

Ok smart ....*** lol

kskboys · Aug 8, 2019

quickccc said:
but i'm not totally sure Jackson's spot could come at the expense of Taco.
Even guys like vet Kerry Hyder have to impress enough to get onto the roster as well.
Which BTW, I thought i'd hear quite a bit more from vet Hyder, (who once had 8.5 sacks in a season with Detroit) in this camp, and it's been quiet about him.
-Have to see something from Kerry in these preseason games, or could this be Kony Ealy (2018 vet FA signee) all over again ?

The Hyder hype has been pretty ridiculous. As soon as we drafted Jackson, his shot at making the team went sharply down. I actually never thought Hyder would make the team.

Future · Aug 8, 2019

Qcard said:
It's a dumb point to include pass rush responsibility to the DL. Ok?

Ok smart ....*** lol

No. But that's not what you did. Throwing to Saquon has nothing to do with a pass rush. In fact, they're more likely to throw to Saquon if there is a pass rush. It's dumb logic to put defending catches out of the backfield on the DL.

quickccc · Aug 8, 2019

kskboys said:
The Hyder hype has been pretty ridiculous. As soon as we drafted Jackson, his shot at making the team went sharply down. I actually never thought Hyder would make the team.

I think we will carry at least 10 DL guys, I just have no idea of the Gregory suspension situation will turn out.
1 DLaw
2 quinn
3 crawford
4 armstrong
5 hyder/ taco ?? (Gregory?)
6 jackson
7 hill
8 woods
9 collins
10 covington
11 ..??

Jelks to PS ?
Taco cut or traded ?
at this point, Preseason game performances will remain the huge tell- all to who stays/goes.

BTW, this is also the reason why I am against reduction of preseason games.
Not only does it gives team more chances to buy time to evaluate but it's also more live game learning experience for rookies that need it.

Qcard · Aug 8, 2019

Future said:
No. But that's not what you did. Throwing to Saquon has nothing to do with a pass rush. In fact, they're more likely to throw to Saquon if there is a pass rush. It's dumb logic to put defending catches out of the backfield on the DL.

So it is dumb to expect your DL to be talented enough or coached enough or savvy enough to play short pass rush Defense... getting your hands into passing lanes or breaking down into passer catcher pursuit.. Future, DL are responsible for some aspects of defending the pass. It's dumb not to think so....
Like I said. Saquon Barkley will go for 125 yards on this bunch. Hope I am wrong.

xwalker · Aug 8, 2019

-

buybuydandavis said:
It's not just the 3rd 3tech, but the 3rd pass rushing DT.

The 3-tech is the pass rushing DT. They use two 3-techs in obvious passing situations.
- On likely pass but maybe run they might use a 3-tech type DT at 1-tech.

Generally snaps are similar to the following:
(player type not actual position played)
1-tech 60%
3-tech #1 60%
3-tech #2 50%
4th DT 30%

Crawford started 8 games at 3-tech and 7 at RDE in 2018.
- All of his starts in 2017 were at RDE.

They obviously plan for the DT rotation to be:
1-tech Woods
3-tech #1 Collins
3-tech #2 Hill
4th DT ? Likely Covington

Covington might be the ideal 4th DT.
- Legit backup 1-tech.
- More 3-tech (pass rush) ability than Woods.
- They had no legit backup 1-tech in the Rams game.

The options for the 3rd & 4th DE:
- Crawford
- Armstrong
- Hyder
- Taco

Hyder
- Has shown legit outside pass rush ability in the past.
- Has looked good in camp.

Crawford & Hyder both have DE/DT ability.

Crawford compared to Hyder (my opinion/projection):
- Crawford better at DT than Hyder.
- Hyder better at DE than Crawford.

The issues to focus on for the Preseason:

Collins: Can he stay healthy until game 1?
Hill: Is he ready to be the 3-tech #2?
Covington: Does he win the 4th DT spot as a 1-tech/3-tech?
Hyder:
- How does he compare to Crawford at DE?
- Is he a legit injury replacement option at 3-tech DT?
The health of DLaw, Quinn & Crawford as of game 1.

Cost to keep vs cut in 2019:
- Crawford: 7M
- Hyder: 700K (1M salary but 300K guaranteed)
- Covington: 1M (1.75M salary but 750K guaranteed)

xwalker · Aug 8, 2019

CF74 said:
We still need another 1-tech

Covington is the second 1-tech now.

xwalker · Aug 8, 2019

quickccc said:
What makes this DL unit decision even more complex is the pending suspension with Gregory, as we would still have to cut someone else in some position area, IF Randy is somehow granted a reduced amount of games (which could be 2 games,.. 6 games , ..8 games ... if not the entire season)
It's gonna be very interesting to see how this pans out come final cut/regular season time.

If Crawford is made a rotational role type,(assuming Quinn will be full time RDE starter.. and Collins the starting3 tech) .. he is making quite a bit for such a backup role. (7 million?)
Is this a case where he is so liked among coaches, management that they let his salary slide THIS year?
Considering he is such a Marinelli favorite, a vocal leader among his peers, and a production rotation role player, despite his salary and limitations, i'd be shocked if the Cowboys
cut Crawford. And no one would dare trade for that kind of salary for a role player.

I don't bother project Gregory on the initial roster.
- He is unlikely to available for game 1.
- It's easier to find roster spots during the season than on cut day.

Crawford has been a full-time starter the past 5 years (At both DE and DT).
- He does not project to start this year.
- The 7M cost is a bit much if he is not a starter.
- Marinelli loves him but Stephen Jones keeps a tight reign on the cap.

Crawford's best fit:
- As the Strong Side DE in a 4-3 (DLaw's position).
- As a 3-4 DE.

Future · Aug 8, 2019

Qcard said:
So it is dumb to expect your DL to be talented enough or coached enough or savvy enough to play short pass rush Defense... getting your hands into passing lanes or breaking down into passer catcher pursuit.. Future, DL are responsible for some aspects of defending the pass. It's dumb not to think so....
Like I said. Saquon Barkley will go for 125 yards on this bunch. Hope I am wrong.

What is "short pass rush defense?"

The only responsibilities DL have against the pass is to get to the QB. Anything else - like reading a screen - is instinctual. They have no responsibility for things like swing passes and checkdowns to RBs.

It is beyond a stretch to think that the Christian Covingtons of the world have any responsibility or stake in stopping Saquon in the passing game lol.

Tussinman · Aug 8, 2019

Will Crawford make the roster if the young guys play good ?

The cap savings post June 1st cut is 7 million this year and 8 million this year. I know Crawford is a serviceable veteran but that's alot of money for a team that has multiple high dollar contracts coming up (maybe keep him this year and cut him next ?)

Stash · Aug 8, 2019

Teague31 · Aug 8, 2019

Ends:
Tank
Quinn
Lawrence
Taco
Jackson
Crawford

Tackles:
Woods
Collins
Hill
Covington

That’s 10. Just don’t see how Hyder makes it. Jelks should make it to the PS. As much as it makes sense to cut Crawford I think he lasts one more year. And Taco is coming on. He too gets one more year.

beware_d-ware · Aug 8, 2019

stasheroo said:
I don't see a valid reason why.

As would I. Hyder has actually had himself an 8-sack season in this league as a defensive end. Crawford hasn't had a single sack against a starting offensive tackle for over two years. Add in the "fraction of the cost" that you accurately pointed out, and it's the smart play, no matter how much anybody might "like" Crawford. There's being a team guy and then there's actually being a football player.

Some people want to say that Crawford is underappreciated. But then they fail to actually justify their position. It's nothing more than empty words.

The word is that Marinelli and the team were shocked when he was still available in round five and didn't have the intention to draft another defensive end but felt he was too good to pass up. And now that he's making plays and catching the owner's attention, do you really want to lose the guy on waivers to keep Crawford? And overpay him to worry about finding somewhere to play him? Really?

Crawford's not a DE, he's a 3 tech who gets flexed out to DE when we are short on bodies. He's good for 5 sacks a year plus decent run defense when he plays inside. Listing his stats at DE is just cherry picking.

And Hyder had an 8 sack season 3 years and a blown Achilles ago. It's a bit like saying we should resign Dez Bryant because he once had a 16 TD season. The open market deemed Hyder's 8 sacks to now be worth 300K guaranteed.

He was fine as a flier signing, but now people are already penciling him in over a 5 year starter and that's crazy to me. More likely is that he is this year's Kony Ealy or Damontre Moore.

As far as Jackson, I want to see him against the 1s.

Stash · Aug 8, 2019

beware_d-ware said:
Crawford's not a DE, he's a 3 tech who gets flexed out to DE when we are short on bodies. He's good for 5 sacks a year plus decent run defense when he plays inside.

Since when is he "good for 5 sacks a year"? Because he did it last year, when they had to scheme to free him up?

And Hyder had an 8 sack season 3 years and a blown Achilles ago. It's a bit like saying we should resign Dez Bryant because he once had a 16 TD season. The open market deemed Hyder's 8 sacks to now be worth 300K guaranteed.

Put Crawford on the open market as well. Nobody will pay him the stupid money the Cowboys have. Nobody.

He was fine as a flier signing, but now people are already penciling him in over a 5 year starter and that's crazy to me. More likely is that he is this year's Kony Ealy or Damontre Moore.

What's "5 year starter"?

As far as Jackson, I want to see him against the 1s.

How's Crawford looking "against the 1's"?

Let's talk DL

kskboys

Well-Known Member

kskboys

Well-Known Member

Verdict

Well-Known Member

Stash

quickccc

Well-Known Member

Stash

Qcard

Well-Known Member

kskboys

Well-Known Member

Future

Intramural Legend

quickccc

Well-Known Member

Qcard

Well-Known Member

xwalker

Well-Known Member

xwalker

Well-Known Member

xwalker

Well-Known Member

Future

Intramural Legend

Tussinman

Well-Known Member

Stash

Teague31

Defender of the Star

beware_d-ware

Well-Known Member

Stash