On June 22, 2017 Derek Carr was signed a 5-year $125m contract extension

Sydla said:

Like last year?

Ryan threw for nearly 5000 yards, completed nearly 70% of his passes, threw 35 TDs against only 7 interceptions with a rating of 108 and a QBR of 70.

Matt Ryan was not "average" last year. Come on dude.

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I don't think he thought that one through...

stasheroo said:

I don't think he thought that one through...

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I suspect he just assumed Ryan was average because the Falcons went 7-9. This is the danger of the "he just wins" crowd.

It wasn't Ryan's fault they missed the playoffs. They missed the playoffs because their OL played poorly and they couldn't run the ball well at all and the defense was terrible, giving up close to 27 points per game.

OmerV said:

I doubt some of those you named will pass Dak up, but your point is well taken, and a fair one. And as you mentioned, there are others that will also pass him up you didn't name. You didn't mention Mahomes, who may blow everyone away.

I've encouraged people all along to recognize that pay scale is not a position ranking. That could only hope to be the case if every player at every position were negotiating a new contract in the same year under the same market conditions, which isn't possible. And even then it wouldn't work because every team would negotiate differently and place different values on players.

I will say, if it is true Dak is asking $40MM/year, that is out of line (subject to other contract details), but I seriously doubt Dak is asking that, much less expecting it.

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Yeah I did forget Mahomes and later thought of him but he's kind of in a league of his own. He's going to be the highest paid well into the 40's.

But I think you are going to see some guys as good as Dak or inferior to Dak get what he got or more. I think its a long list of guys. Baker Mayfield is going to be another one of those guys that if Dak gets 34 or 35 million the Browns will have to exceed that to retain him. I think Darnold fits that same mold.


But I do agree. Once people understand that its not a position ranking but a pay scale it will be easier for them to sleep at night lol. I think the Cowboys and Dak will meet somewhere in the middle. Higher than fans want but not 40 million. I'm thinking 34 or 35 per.

Sydla said:

Like last year?

Ryan threw for nearly 5000 yards, completed nearly 70% of his passes, threw 35 TDs against only 7 interceptions with a rating of 108 and a QBR of 70.

Matt Ryan was not "average" last year. Come on dude.

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He's a stat padder. Add him and Stafford to the same club.

Sydla said:

Like last year?

Ryan threw for nearly 5000 yards, completed nearly 70% of his passes, threw 35 TDs against only 7 interceptions with a rating of 108 and a QBR of 70.

Matt Ryan was not "average" last year. Come on dude.

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What was the Falcons record? Stats don't tell the whole story. In the games that mattered he was awful. Saints twice, Eagles, Cowboys, and Ravens he could not get it done. Stats are very misleading. This is not fantasy football.

rocyaice said:

He's a stat padder. Add him and Stafford to the same club.

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LOL.

Won 59% of his games and has made a SB. But he's a stat padder.

I mean you Dak guys have zero shame.

rocyaice said:

Yeah I did forget Mahomes and later thought of him but he's kind of in a league of his own. He's going to be the highest paid well into the 40's.

But I think you are going to see some guys as good as Dak or inferior to Dak get what he got or more. I think its a long list of guys. Baker Mayfield is going to be another one of those guys that if Dak gets 34 or 35 million the Browns will have to exceed that to retain him. I think Darnold fits that same mold.


But I do agree. Once people understand that its not a position ranking but a pay scale it will be easier for them to sleep at night lol. I think the Cowboys and Dak will meet somewhere in the middle. Higher than fans want but not 40 million. I'm thinking 34 or 35 per.

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My guess is a deal that reads as 5-years, $165 million, or a face value avareg of $33 million a year. Essentially, "higher than Wentz".

Many will still lose their minds but if they look at it this way, it's more palatable.

Adding 5 years and $165 million to his current $2 million and it's 6 years, $167 million. That works out to an average of $27.83 million, let's say $28 million. That's Kirk Cousins money without all of it being guaranteed. I think many could live with that.

rocyaice said:

.............Derek Carr was signed a five-year, $125 million contract extension with $70 million in total guarantees which made him the highest paid player in the NFL.

Did Derek Carr's agent come to the table and say his client was the best quarterback in the league and deserved to be the highest paid player in the league? Of course not. But they knew the power of inflation. They knew that the higher the salary cap got the higher the salary of quarterbacks would get.

So where do you think that contract ranks just 2 years later?

1. Seahawks QB Russell Wilson: $35 million
2. Steelers QB Ben Roethlisberger: $34 million
3. Packers QB Aaron Rodgers: $33.5 million
4. Eagles QB Carson Wentz: $32 million
5. Falcons QB Matt Ryan: $30 million
6. Vikings QB Kirk Cousins: $28 million
7. 49ers QB Jimmy Garoppolo: $27.5 million
8. Lions QB Matthew Stafford: $27 millio
9. Raiders QB Derek Carr: $25 million


So in just TWO YEARS........Derek Carr went from being the highest paid quarterback in the league to #9. And actually with the Tom Brady extension he may actually be #10 if I'm not mistaken.

So what's my point? I'm sure its obvious to many. Dak may sign a contract that makes him top 3 highest paid but with guys like Goff, Mariota, Winston, Mayfield, Allen, Darnold, etc. coming up in the next couple of years? That deal won't even be top 10 especially if you factor in the veterans who will need new deal coming up.

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I agree that signing Carr was a big mistake the Raiders would like to have back.

Signing Dak to $30 million long term would be an even bigger mistake. And he'll implode under the pressure of a huge contract like this. He'll get booed out of the Death Star before long.

We're about to have 6 players on offense that make top-five money. New England has zero.

The 22nd-ranked scoring offense that is rock bottom in the red zone touchdown. Yeah let's pay everybody!

Madness.

baltcowboy said:

What was the Falcons record? Stats don't tell the whole story. In the games that mattered he was awful. Saints twice, Eagles, Cowboys, and Ravens he could not get it done. Stats are very misleading. This is not fantasy football.

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They sure are when they completely destroy your argument!

Sydla said:

He was?

Dak threw for 200 yards and no TDs that day. Ryan threw for close to 300 and one TD (and one interception).

Ryan is a better QB than Dak.

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Dak had Cooper , Ryan had Jones, Sanu, and Ridley

baltcowboy said:

What was the Falcons record? Stats don't tell the whole story. In the games that mattered he was awful. Saints twice, Eagles, Cowboys, and Ravens he could not get it done. Stats are very misleading. This is not fantasy football.

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The Falcons were 7-9, not because Ryan was average but because their run game fell apart and was bottom third of the league and their defense was also one of the worst in football giving up nearly 27 points per game. Blaming the Falcons record on Ryan is idiotic. It just is.

And he was not "awful" against the Cowboys or the Saints. You aren't even being objective at this point.

The first time they played the Saints, he had a rating of 148 and the Falcons scored 37 points, only to have their defense give up 43. But yea, let's blame Ryan for that loss. In the second Saints game, he had a rating of 102 but the defense, again, gave up 31 points. Combined, in the two Saints games, he threw for 750 yards, completed over 70% of his passes, 7 TDs, 1 interception and had a rating of around 125. His defense though? Gave up 74 points. Oh and the Falcons run game? They ran for like 75 yards COMBINED in the two games. Ryan was basically the only reason those games weren't total blowouts.

You literally are just making things up now.

Big D said:

Dak had Cooper , Ryan had Jones, Sanu, and Ridley

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Dak also had the better OL and running game.

dckid said:

It's interesting, do you think the Cowboys should pay Dak $40 per year?

All three guys you mention Wilson, Big Ben & Brady had SB wins at 26 and you could see that they were upper echelon QB's. Dak just isnt and I'm not suggesting we start over. This is not a binary discussion, where if fans don't think he is worth $40 million we should move on.
I also would not be surprise if Dak's camp leaked out that he is looking for $40 million a year. I mean its good negotiation on their part as the $30 million barrier has been crossed and now when he settles for $32 fans will think he took one for the team. It's gamesmanship on both sides. If I was the Cowboys I would put a timeline on the $30 offer and then just let him play it out. Dak is not a top 5 QB and he shouldn't be paid as such.. ( my opinion). Just because other teams have decided to pay outrageous salaries to the likes of Carr, Stafford, Jimmy G, doesn't mean the Cowboys should follow suit.

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They had GREAT Teams around them too. Great defenses. No one gave Russ and Big Ben much credits for their first Super Bowls. The quarterbacks they became in their prime was NOTHING like they were on those first Super Bowl runs.

And there is no reason for Dak's to leak that information. That seems like something that's coming from the other side of the coin.

And no I wouldn't pay Dak 40 or think the Cowboys should. In a perfect world I'd want Dak to get 25-28 million honestly. But I can't sit here and expect him or his camp to settle for that when Garopolo, Cousins and Wentz get more than that and regardless of how "pretty" they can throw a football...they haven't accomplished as much as Dak has. Especially Jimmy and Cousins.

Northern_Cowboy said:

I got your point my point was that the Raiders as an example screwed up making Carr the highest paid QB, so why should we follow that pattern and do the same for Dak

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They didn't screw up though unless they don't feel Carr is a franchise qb. They can use his contract as a excuse for why they suck but they have ran that organization into the ground from the top down. They made a decent left tackle the highest paid tackle in the league. They screwed up Cooper and Mack. Carr was not the reason for any of that or his contract.

Now if you want to argue that Carr's contract somehow made the Raiders incredibly stupid then I guess that's a decent argument to make but I'm not sure how.

Swanny said:

Then we are going to agree to disagree. No point in arguing when we just aren't going to agree. You have your opinion I have mine.

All I can say is that Dak hasn't shown enough to this point to be worth a large chunk of salary cap space. Let the guy play out this season and we should know much more. I hope he proves that he is worth every cent he is asking for.

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The disagreement isn't on what Dak is. I imagine we probably both think Dak is somewhere in the middle of the pack right now. Maybe you think he's worth or not sure but I surely don't believe he's the best in the league and I don't believe you think he's the worst in the league. But the disagreement is his ceiling. You seem to believe his ceiling is Trent Dilfer. I don't know what his ceiling is. He may have already hit his ceiling. I think its too early to tell honestly. I don't think he's a guy that can have crap around him and succeed but I don't think there's any quarterback like that in the league so why should I expect Dak to be that guy?

Sydla said:

To some, it's simply a question of do you pay an average QB a big contract under the guise of "oh well, in 5 years it won't be that big a contract".

Pay the QB big money because he's a big time QB. Not because, hey, in a few years, his money won't look that bad. That's a really bad business.

Because in 3 years, if Dak Prescott is an average QB that can't get the team over the hump, it won't matter where he ranks in the pecking order of QB pay. The only thing that will matter is the Cowboys are taking a massive cap hit for a QB that can't get it done.

That's the point.

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Well I actually agree with this. If you feel that in 3 years Dak is in the same boat he's in right now? Then yeah don't sign him. I actually agree with you there. And I didn't discuss it in my post because my post wasn't really about how good or bad Dak is or his ceiling but you are signing him based on what you think he can become too. You aren't signing this guy to a contract based on him staying the exact same and not progressing.

rocyaice said:

Well I actually agree with this. If you feel that in 3 years Dak is in the same boat he's in right now? Then yeah don't sign him. I actually agree with you there. And I didn't discuss it in my post because my post wasn't really about how good or bad Dak is or his ceiling but you are signing him based on what you think he can become too. You aren't signing this guy to a contract based on him staying the exact same and not progressing.

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And this is why I have zero problems letting Dak play the 2019 under his existing deal. Even make him play 7-8 games, at least, before I make the decision to hand him $33M or whatever it would take on an AAV to get a deal done.

Sure, you don't sign a guy thinking he won't get better. But the real possibility exists that what you see is what you get from Dak and if that's the case, how smart is it to pay him that much money and eat up that much cap space for a QB that would likely need a stupendous supporting cast around him to perform?

Sydla said:

LOL.

Won 59% of his games and has made a SB. But he's a stat padder.

I mean you Dak guys have zero shame.

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LOL....aye don't shoot the messenger. Take it up with Barnwell.......



"Garbage time (drives starting with a win probability of 1% or less) leaders: Passing yards: Matt Ryan (628), Kirk Cousins (610), Eli Manning (597) Yards from scrimmage: Larry Fitzgerald (212), Adam Thielen (197), Jalen Richard (193), Julio Jones (188), Joe Mixon (175)"


Shout out to Matthew Stafford for finally getting out of the top 3 lol.

rocyaice said:

LOL....aye don't shoot the messenger. Take it up with Barnwell.......



"Garbage time (drives starting with a win probability of 1% or less) leaders: Passing yards: Matt Ryan (628), Kirk Cousins (610), Eli Manning (597) Yards from scrimmage: Larry Fitzgerald (212), Adam Thielen (197), Jalen Richard (193), Julio Jones (188), Joe Mixon (175)"


Shout out to Matthew Stafford for finally getting out of the top 3 lol.

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LOL at Bill Barnwell who is the master of cherry picking stats.

Even if you deduct Ryan's 628 garbage time yards, he threw for well over 4200 yards on a team that couldn't run the ball a lick.

But yeah, stat padder.

Brax said:

We get it, it's just his turn to get paid regardless that's he's a middle (15-25) level QB. I know hater, troll, stupid, (insert what ever name you and your buddies like) don't get it because it doesn't fit the narrative you want to project, but paying top money for a lower tier QB just doesn't make sense. Play him out and franchise him ,as for a trade maybe they can get their 4th back because there isn't any team stepping up to pay Dak #1 money and give up any #1 pick. Paying Dak average QB money with incentives for performance is all Dak is worth. Dak will never be a top 10 let alone 5 QB in my opinion and paying him elite money is just plain stupid. In your world and the rest of the Dak devotee's just pay the man because it's his turn not because of his performance. It is just a plain dumb way to view it.

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Like I've said to others.....if you feel Dak is a lower tier qb then no you shouldn't pay him. You won't get a argument from me on that.

Dak will never be a top 10 qb? He was top 10 his rookie year lol. What are you talking about?

And since you are doing a lot of assuming what Dak is in "my world" let me make my stance very clear to you and anyone else.

Dak is a top 15 right now.
He's 26 years old. He hasn't hit his ceiling yet.
He was a top 10 qb his rookie year. He was probably top 20 his second year when injuries occurred.
He's a guy who needs a solid team around him just like any other quarterback.
In this offense he will never lead the league in passing yards.

IF there's anything else I'm missing I have no problem clarifying it for you. I'm a Dak fan like I thought we all were who are Cowboy fans. But my stance has always been you pay him what you think he's worth. If you feel he's a op 25 qb like you stated then let him go and don't waste his or our time. But if the Cowboys offered him 30 million I'm guessing they disagree w

erod said:

I agree that signing Carr was a big mistake the Raiders would like to have back.

Signing Dak to $30 million long term would be an even bigger mistake. And he'll implode under the pressure of a huge contract like this. He'll get booed out of the Death Star before long.

We're about to have 6 players on offense that make top-five money. New England has zero.

The 22nd-ranked scoring offense that is rock bottom in the red zone touchdown. Yeah let's pay everybody!

Madness.

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Something you said really hit home. "We're about to have 6 players on offense that make top-five money. New England has zero."
When you run a mom and pop FO like Dallas does this is what you end up with. NE knows how to build a winning culture.
Bill obviously has the cheat code with Brady and not all teams can have that, so it's almost hard to compare NE to everyone else but they are the defacto standard right?
The Patriots probably have the most 5-6 million a year guys on their team, they have found a sweet spot in the current CBA which undervalues that type of player.
Just do down the list, Kyle Van Noy, Edelman, James White, Michael Bennett, Patrick Chung, Burkhead brought back Jamie Collins.. and watch him get double digit sacks.
They pick and choose who they pay, Brady, Gilmore, Shaq Mason, Hightower, mcCourty..
The Bears, Eagles, Rams used a slightly different approach. Rams went all in on a cheap QB, Eagles were all in on a cheap QB now things will be a bit different with Wentz making big money.
Bears are all in with a cheap QB. The Cowboys had a chance to fill in their roster with depth a key positions but we continue to say.. "we like the players we have"
We will end up with $25 million a year guys and others that make 600K. I don't think Dak, Zeke and Cooper will get us a SB.
I don't believe Dak or Cooper are the best at their position. Cooper had a good half season with us, although I think he is an ascending player but he is not the same league as Michael Thomas. Just look at all the next gen stats as well as the normal stats.

Sydla said:

LOL at Bill Barnwell who is the master of cherry picking stats.

Even if you deduct Ryan's 628 garbage time yards, he threw for well over 4200 yards on a team that couldn't run the ball a lick.

But yeah, stat padder.

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I mean but you've seen Ryan play.....he and Matt Stafford are the kings of padding stats when they have no shot of winning. Its almost like Ryan has him and Julio on fantasy.

But in your own argument you said he didn't have a run game and Barnwell says he lights it up in garbage time. So of course his stats look great. If you can't run then you are passing the football which is why you have great stats and only have 7 wins. But it is a red flag when he couldn't even get a W against ANY of the playoff team she faced last year. He managed to light it up against the bad teams and win though.

dckid said:

Something you said really hit home. "We're about to have 6 players on offense that make top-five money. New England has zero."
When you run a mom and pop FO like Dallas does this is what you end up with. NE knows how to build a winning culture.
Bill obviously has the cheat code with Brady and not all teams can have that, so it's almost hard to compare NE to everyone else but they are the defacto standard right?
The Patriots probably have the most 5-6 million a year guys on their team, they have found a sweet spot in the current CBA which undervalues that type of player.
Just do down the list, Kyle Van Noy, Edelman, James White, Michael Bennett, Patrick Chung, Burkhead brought back Jamie Collins.. and watch him get double digit sacks.
They pick and choose who they pay, Brady, Gilmore, Shaq Mason, Hightower, mcCourty..
The Bears, Eagles, Rams used a slightly different approach. Rams went all in on a cheap QB, Eagles were all in on a cheap QB now things will be a bit different with Wentz making big money.
Bears are all in with a cheap QB. The Cowboys had a chance to fill in their roster with depth a key positions but we continue to say.. "we like the players we have"
We will end up with $25 million a year guys and others that make 600K. I don't think Dak, Zeke and Cooper will get us a SB.
I don't believe Dak or Cooper are the best at their position. Cooper had a good half season with us, although I think he is an ascending player but he is not the same league as Michael Thomas. Just look at all the next gen stats as well as the normal stats.

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You guys have to stop using the Patriots as the bar. What works for them doesn't work for everyone. Eagles won a championship to and the Ravens. They run their organizations nothing like how those guys do. When you don't have Bill Bellichek you have to do what you have to do to win. Letting your best players go to be the Pats is stupid. Even though the Patriots have some highly paid players on their team....

Sydla said:

And this is why I have zero problems letting Dak play the 2019 under his existing deal. Even make him play 7-8 games, at least, before I make the decision to hand him $33M or whatever it would take on an AAV to get a deal done.

Sure, you don't sign a guy thinking he won't get better. But the real possibility exists that what you see is what you get from Dak and if that's the case, how smart is it to pay him that much money and eat up that much cap space for a QB that would likely need a stupendous supporting cast around him to perform?

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I agree and disagree with this.

I have no problem letting him play out his existing deal as well. There is a possibility that Dak flourishes next season and earns even more money. Its not a fear of mine personally. If you are going to sign him to 33 or 35 million........let's say he plays lights out and over his head....he'll probably earn about a extra 5 million per year. Of course its not my money but that extra 5 million won't stop me from signing Dak especially if he lights it up and is a MVP candidate this year. So I'm not against letting him play out his deal either.

The part I disagree with is Dak not getting any better. IF you think he's hit his ceiling then you don't pay him 30 million. At that point you pay him Kirk Cousins money because is a guy who has hit his ceiling.

stasheroo said:

My guess is a deal that reads as 5-years, $165 million, or a face value avareg of $33 million a year. Essentially, "higher than Wentz".

Many will still lose their minds but if they look at it this way, it's more palatable.

Adding 5 years and $165 million to his current $2 million and it's 6 years, $167 million. That works out to an average of $27.83 million, let's say $28 million. That's Kirk Cousins money without all of it being guaranteed. I think many could live with that.

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Good point. I wonder does that type of thinking go into why they want to get the deal done? Because at face value it does look a lot better than you committing 33 million a year even though its essentially the same thing.

erod said:

I agree that signing Carr was a big mistake the Raiders would like to have back.

Signing Dak to $30 million long term would be an even bigger mistake. And he'll implode under the pressure of a huge contract like this. He'll get booed out of the Death Star before long.

We're about to have 6 players on offense that make top-five money. New England has zero.

The 22nd-ranked scoring offense that is rock bottom in the red zone touchdown. Yeah let's pay everybody!

Madness.

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Well that's what happens when you have a terrible offense and playbook. Even Aaron Rodgers can't play in a crappy offense.