BotchedLobotomy
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The Packers perfected this technique and I have read articles where they actually brag about it.
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NFL Refs calling more Holding (Up 66%)
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MarcusRock
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It is ridiculous to think it is not possible to tell from a still photo. You do not need to know how either of the Cowboys players in these photos got in their respective positions to know they were being held.
Okay, rule tutorial time. Been a while, and because we're 2-0, there haven't been controversial plays for me to break out the rulebook on folks accusing officials of cheating.
Here is the holding rule in its entirety and then I'll address these still photos. This is from Rule 12, Section 1, Article 3. Illegal Block By An Offensive Player:
It is a foul if an offensive blocker:
...
(c) Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether
the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:
...
(c) Use his hands or arms to materially restrict or alter the defender’s path or angle of pursuit. It is a foul regardless of whether
the blocker’s hands are inside or outside the frame of the defender’s body. Material restrictions include but are not limited to:
(1) grabbing or tackling an opponent;
(2) hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or
(3) pulling him to the ground.
Penalty: For holding by the offense: Loss of 10 yards.(2) hooking, jerking, twisting, or turning him; or
(3) pulling him to the ground.
Blocking Notes:
(1) When a defensive player is held by an offensive player during the following situations, Offensive Holding will not be
called:
(1) When a defensive player is held by an offensive player during the following situations, Offensive Holding will not be
called:
(a) if the runner is being tackled simultaneously by another defensive player;
(b) if the runner simultaneously goes out of bounds;
(c) if a Fair Catch is made simultaneously;
(d) if the action clearly occurs after a forward pass has been thrown to a receiver beyond the line of scrimmage;
(e) if the action occurs away from the point of attack and not within close line play;
(f) if a free kick results in a touchback;
(g) if a scrimmage kick simultaneously becomes a touchback;
(h) if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either
blocker, or is taken to the ground; or
(i) if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a “rip” technique that puts an offensive player in a position
that would normally be holding.
(b) if the runner simultaneously goes out of bounds;
(c) if a Fair Catch is made simultaneously;
(d) if the action clearly occurs after a forward pass has been thrown to a receiver beyond the line of scrimmage;
(e) if the action occurs away from the point of attack and not within close line play;
(f) if a free kick results in a touchback;
(g) if a scrimmage kick simultaneously becomes a touchback;
(h) if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either
blocker, or is taken to the ground; or
(i) if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a “rip” technique that puts an offensive player in a position
that would normally be holding.
So for the jersey pull one, this is the one that announcers go on about saying it'll be called if officials see it and that gets fans thinking it should be automatic. But look at the rule. The rule says "materially restrict." Despite what people want to shortcut to, you can actually pull someone's jersey and not "materially restrict" them especially if a jersey pull didn't actually slow them down or delay them in getting to the QB or runner. Do we know this from a still photo? If it does, then I'd agree that yes it should be called, not because some announcer says yes it's called every time. You have to look at the wording of the rule and see if the video fits the rule, which by definition tells you that the action has to be looked at, not a still moment in time.
On the second photo, I actually debated this call after it happened and again pulled out these rules. If you look at Blocking Notes under letter (i), it discusses a "rip" technique, which is a player dipping his arm underneath to turn a corner. Wilson used such a technique on that particular play, hence he has his inside arm free to get in Wentz' face. Notice the rule says that holding will NOT be called even if the resulting positioning would normally be holding.
As for Irving, which someone has finally posted a video above, that falls under Blocking Notes letter (h), where he was double-teamed. I think the thing to determine is whether Irving went to the ground as a result of "the action" of the defenders. The "chokehold" OL is not the main engager of Irving, the other guy is, and Irving doesn't "get to the outside" of that guy. He does get by the chokehold guy who does that little swipe and then lets the main engager take over who blocks Irving from the side but didn't appear to pull him down. So the question is whether the chokehold guy's action caused Irving to fall or Irving being engaged from the side got him taken to the ground (that guy didn't appear to hold). Remember, this is in the Notes section that says holding will NOT be called unless certain things happen. Just falling does not apply here, otherwise a DL can just fall every time he's double-teamed and expect a holding call. To me, it's marginal at most but fan eyes see what fan eyes see when a heartbreaking loss happens. I wouldn't call it and I wouldn't want it called against our OL either.
MarcusRock
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See the actual rules I just posted.
Blackspider214
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Because no other NFL team has the money to buy off refs? Only the Pats huh? Riiiight.
Chocolate Lab
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Just what this league needed: More flags.
Future
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Pretty much. The inconsistency in when they are called really sucks.
I think it was Collinsworth saying it and, though I don't like agreeing with him, it should just be a 5-yard penalty.
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I did and found this interesting:
Blocking Notes:
(h) if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either
blocker, or is taken to the ground; or
(i) if, during a defensive charge, a defensive player uses a “rip” technique that puts an offensive player in a position
that would normally be holding.
[Your interpretation] As for Irving, which someone has finally posted a video above, that falls under Blocking Notes letter (h), where he was double-teamed. I think the thing to determine is whether Irving went to the ground as a result of "the action" of the defenders. The "chokehold" OL is not the main engager of Irving, the other guy is, and Irving doesn't "get to the outside" of that guy. He does get by the chokehold guy who does that little swipe and then lets the main engager take over who blocks Irving from the side but didn't appear to pull him down. So the question is whether the chokehold guy's action caused Irving to fall or Irving being engaged from the side got him taken to the ground (that guy didn't appear to hold). Remember, this is in the Notes section that says holding will NOT be called unless certain things happen. Just falling does not apply here, otherwise a DL can just fall every time he's double-teamed and expect a holding call. To me, it's marginal at most but fan eyes see what fan eyes see when a heartbreaking loss happens. I wouldn't call it and I wouldn't want it called against our OL either.
______________________________
Three things:
1. Thank you. "Marginal at most" is enough of an answer to my original reply in my book.
2. You should be one of the current NFL officials who are heavy scrutinized practically every week (seriously/zero humor implied).
3. It would not surprise me at all if offensive holding rules (including blocking notes) are not revised some time in the future.
Soth
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I agree. I could not believe it when they called a holding against the Commanders offense. It is so rare for our defense to be the beneficiary of holding calls.
Our offense on the other hand gets called for holding all the time. I have not noticed a spike this year vs last year. They still get a few holding calls every game.
glimmerman
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I
Everytime I see a flag I assume it’s against us. Lol. It’s just me.
Creeper
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I just watched the game again last night and there were a lot of holding calls against Washington they missed. TLaw was practically tackled on AP's TD run. But there was a lot more than that.
At the same time, they call this block in the back thing at times when I think its just stupid. An offensive guy goes to block a def guy and the def guy turns towards the play. The Offensive guy can;t avoid blocking in the back and when he initiated contact the guy was in front of him. Its a tough call.
MarcusRock
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You're right. I should be one of the officials, namely an "eye in the sky." I'm pretty good at this and can suspend fandom to get at what I see as truth for a particular instance. No agenda necessary.
CowboysRule
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"(h) if the action is part of a double-team block, unless the defender splits the double team, gets to the outside of either
blocker, or is taken to the ground"
Did you miss the part where Irving was splitting between the two defenders?
blocker, or is taken to the ground"
Did you miss the part where Irving was splitting between the two defenders?
MarcusRock
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He got past the chokehold guy who quickly disengaged, not the other who was still blocking Irving from the side when they fell. Blocking from the side is allowed and I didn't see any actions from that guy that would constitute a hold from the video shown. A view from the back of GB's OL would be a better look at what he did but what exactly did you see from the video shown?
Bob-Lillys-War
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Pretty much ... don't you watch their games ? Know their stats ?
Its not about money, its about mob ... ask bob's kraft frequent spot (miami prostitute ring .)
Does every owner have the money to go to a sex slave massage parlor ?
But do they ? .... Riiiiiight .
TNCowboy
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Wasn't just backside holding in that game, they just blatantly held all game long. They just tackled Irving on the big pass at the end.