Beating Marinelli's Scheme

beware_d-ware · Nov 14, 2019

Haimerej said:
How is it outdated? Elaborate.

The fact is every team in the league runs a version of cover 2, cover 3, single high, etc. This whole, "outdated," argument is nonsense. I think people like to use it because he's old.

This.

And @ the OP, I can't think of a single team in the league that still runs a 2 gap front. Even 3-4 teams these days gap shoot.

waldoputty · Nov 14, 2019

xwalker said:
I've explained many times how the Rams exploited the Cowboys scheme.

I made the videos to go with the explanations.

Most of the Cowboys run defense problems are against Zone Blocking.

The DL flows to the play-side on Zone Runs. Jumping up-field has not been a big issue on zone runs.

The issues are about lateral movement and blocking assignments.

Zone runs start to the outside and then often cut back inside.

Defenses have to balance how much they move outside (play-side) vs how much they stay put to defend the cut back.

The Rams literally always (all but a couple of plays) to the side where the 1-tech was aligned.

They did that because the open gap on that side is the B gap (OG - OT).

If the 1-tech has to move across the extra gap as compared to when the run is to the side with the 3-tech.

The Cowboys 1-tech was making a mad-dash to get outside (i.e. He took himself out of the middle area).

That made it easy to block for the inside cut back.

They just needed a good double-team on the backside DT which was the 3-tech.

With the 1-tech taking himself out of the area, it was easy for an OL on that side to kick out and block a LB.

One of the two OL doubling the 3-tech could kick out and block the other LB because the timing of cut back plays means a delayed block works perfectly.

It was a similar concept with the backside LB. If he stays in place looking for the cut back or often looking for some backside misdirection including a QB keep and roll out backside, then the OL kicks out and pins him to that side. If that backside LB moves hard to the play-side, then the OL will box him out on that side which is even better because it boxes out box LBs to that side basically with 1 block.

Patriots vs Rams
Belichick changed his defensive alignment to play the Rams.
He moved a LB outside and up on the line.
That allowed the DE on that side to play the gap inside the OT instead of outside the OT because the LB would play the gap outside the OT.
With the DE playing the otherwise "open" B gap, the need for the 1-tech to move quickly to the outside was limited.
The trade-off was that it put that LB on the outside in coverage where the Nickel CB would normally be located (they flipped the Nickel "slot" CB to the opposite side to balance things out). The LB would play a short zone and a Safety would cover over the top. The CB on that side would cover the outside WR as normal.

Summary:
Zone Blocking teams are gashing the Cowboys by boxing out their players (especially the LBs) laterally (side to side).
Rams: Primarily by showing outside zone run then cutting back inside.
Vikings: Primarily by outside zone runs but then an occasion inside cut back if the Cowboys started to cheat to the outside.

Belichick made a simple change in this defensive alignment moving a LB to the outside.
That LB on the outside was responsible for area. He didn't need to move far laterally.
The remaining LB on the inside didn't need to move hard to the outside because there was already a LB there.

Your (buybuy) concept of letting the defender go where he is going was true, but it's more about letting the DT move laterally which takes him out defending the inside cut back or if he does not move laterally quickly, then and outside gap will be open.

The RB "reads" the backside LB and the play-side DT then either stay to the outside or cuts back inside based on their movement.

The Belichick alignment mucked up the "read" for the Rams RB and without their run game working, it was easy to attack their passing game.

so why is the cowboys not doing what belicheat did?

Cowboy06 · Nov 14, 2019

DuncanIso said:
The Dallas defense is Basic.

No one is fooled.

Its all Cover 1 or 3.

Man or zone.

We see the odd LB or slot blitz a few times.

That's about it.

Everyone is playing 1 gap.

The DEs don't contain, so the outside is always open.

Amen....we need Marinelli to get out of the way, out of the building and move along to something new. I am not even sure if Richard shouldn't help him pack and help him unpack and room with Marinelli wherever he moves..

ondaedg · Nov 14, 2019

waldoputty said:
so why is the cowboys not doing what belicheat did?

Because Garrett and his DCs either aren't willing to change or aren't capable of coming up with that type of solution.

Future · Nov 14, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
I thought I'd run a strategy by you all for beating Marinelli.

His whole shtick is getting his defense upfield through a gap and run defending "on the way to the QB". Ok. Use that against him.

Either a defender is in a gap you plan to hit with the RB, or not.
If yes, block.
If not, usher the dlineman upfield *where he's trying to go* and go block a LB.

Unlike a two gap which holds a line of defense across the LOS, Marinelli's one gap rush is vacating the LOS if they can manage to get upfield. So let them. Help them. Help the *right* ones.

Teams seem to abuse us in the run game by getting up on our LBs. Eberflus simply spanked us that way. How? Should be one defender trying to get upfield somewhere the play ain't going. That's one blocker who can go looking for a LB.

There was talk about the Rams having "tells" on our dline. Do you really need tells? Just react on where the dlineman lines up and tries to go. If the dlineman is going somewhere the ball ain't, help him get there, and go block a LB. Or just another lineman.

I'm sure it's not quite so simple, but I do think this is the basic strategy to use against Marinelli. Use the attempt get upfield past the oline to your advantage.

Good stuff. Think the bolded is all spot on, and it is quite simple. Tells and all that stuff don't matter, it's using the defense against itself.

The Rams were hardly the first to do that to this defense though, it's common. We saw the Broncos do it Week 2 of 2017. The issue is having OL athletic enough to get to the second level and just having a run game system that gets to and through the line quick enough. When the run defense struggles, it is not because of a lack of a 1T, it is because the LBs don't defeat those blocks. A 1T makes sense if you two-gap, but that defense gives you the defense that Minnesota played against Dallas, which loses more often than not.

Marinelli's system risks the run game in order to put more pressure on the quarterback. Sometimes teams can exploit it, and when the LBs are bad (and they all were against Minny), it looks awful. But what it does is limit opportunities for downfield passing - we saw it for Minny and GB - and create TFLs. I mean, for all the griping about the run defense against Minny, it was screen passes and penalties that were the biggest problems early. We're talking about 100-something yards from two screens (with horrible LB efforts), and two iffy penalties. Take those away, and Dallas wins easy.

I think Cowboys fans have also lost perspective on what it is to attack a defense's weakness, because we haven't done it in like 15 years.

Future · Nov 14, 2019

Whyjerry said:
Rod runs a very basic cover 2 scheme and does his best to keep to 4 rushers. He doesn't understand that this defense is outdated due to rule changes and offensive scheme changes.

They run almost exclusively cover-3 and single high. The only time they ever go Cover 2 is third and long.

Future · Nov 14, 2019

DuncanIso said:
Legion of Boom don't play BBDB.

Legion of Boom can't exist today b/c they would have been called for a penalty on almost every snap.

EGTuna · Nov 14, 2019

@xwalker is 100% right.

All of the Mike Shanahan derivatives are destroying the Cowboys with outside zone running, screens using the same stuff, and other things like boot action. This is why the Cowboys can inexplicably shut down Kamara two years in a row, but get gashed by Marlin Mack, CJ Anderson and Aaron Jones, The Vikings did the same this past week. Shocker, it worked. It's a scheme and talent problem. The scheme, if it were, should be different based on the opponent. 2-gap works well against Sean Payton when the players execute, but it's terrible vs. Shanahan-esque teams.

This is why Belichick is always light years ahead of everyone else. He adjusts every game. He's not perfect. He didn't have much of answer for the Ravens power running game, but that's because BB has built his defense to stop the likes of the Chiefs, (Colts with Luck), Pitt (with Ben), and other 3-WR base teams that play horizontally and vertically simultaneously. BB has built up a secondary capable of smothering a passing game, but is exposed against power running teams that can use the QB to run to get that extra blocker against a front7 that is lacking depth.

Based on the above I expect a) the Pats to screen pass the Cowboys to death via long drives and relentless 3rd down conversions that Dallas will have no answer for, and b) for them to mimic the Saints and Vikings scheme by using only 6 and 7 man boxes to stop Zeke and use their awesome secondary to double Cooper and put Gilmore on Gallup and McCourty1 & McCourty2 on Cobb/Jarwin/Witten. Dallas should run Dak at least 10 times vs. NE, but it will likely be 0.

Whyjerry · Nov 14, 2019

Future said:
They run almost exclusively cover-3 and single high. The only time they ever go Cover 2 is third and long.

Rod is the OG cover 2 guy.

ondaedg · Nov 14, 2019

EGTuna said:
@xwalker is 100% right.

All of the Mike Shanahan derivatives are destroying the Cowboys with outside zone running, screens using the same stuff, and other things like boot action. This is why the Cowboys can inexplicably shut down Kamara two years in a row, but get gashed by Marlin Mack, CJ Anderson and Aaron Jones, The Vikings did the same this past week. Shocker, it worked. It's a scheme and talent problem. The scheme, if it were, should be different based on the opponent. 2-gap works well against Sean Payton when the players execute, but it's terrible vs. Shanahan-esque teams.

This is why Belichick is always light years ahead of everyone else. He adjusts every game. He's not perfect. He didn't have much of answer for the Ravens power running game, but that's because BB has built his defense to stop the likes of the Chiefs, (Colts with Luck), Pitt (with Ben), and other 3-WR base teams that play horizontally and vertically simultaneously. BB has built up a secondary capable of smothering a passing game, but is exposed against power running teams that can use the QB to run to get that extra blocker against a front7 that is lacking depth.

Based on the above I expect a) the Pats to screen pass the Cowboys to death via long drives and relentless 3rd down conversions that Dallas will have no answer for, and b) for them to mimic the Saints and Vikings scheme by using only 6 and 7 man boxes to stop Zeke and use their awesome secondary to double Cooper and put Gilmore on Gallup and McCourty1 & McCourty2 on Cobb/Jarwin/Witten. Dallas should run Dak at least 10 times vs. NE, but it will likely be 0.

I was watching the game thinking Terrell Davis could only dream about playing us in his prime.

Future · Nov 14, 2019

Whyjerry said:
Rod is the OG cover 2 guy.

No, Monte Kiffin is.

Rod hasn't run Cover 2 in Dallas.

IceStar-D7 · Nov 14, 2019

Dallas defense is like the Dallas offense. No great schemes you need to worry about. No surprises or things you haven't seen. And pretty easy to counter scheme against. I'd love to interview some real NFL DC and OC's and ask them what they really think of the Cowboys game plans .Even the owner /GM of Dallas has questions. Yet he keeps them in their jobs :facepalm:

Haimerej · Nov 14, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
"Facts which contradict The Narrative will be ignored."

Not sure what you're saying here. I responded to your question about OL guys getting up on the LBs by telling you why it happens. You said last year's guys weren't good. I said last year doesn't matter, because it doesn't. I don't care if Randy White is playing DT, if he's getting handled by one guy then that frees up another to get to the second level.

JW82 · Nov 14, 2019

Whats the easiest thing to do in the NFL?...oh my bad, I thought we were going with a Jeopardy format..

Whyjerry · Nov 14, 2019

Future said:
No, Monte Kiffin is.

Rod hasn't run Cover 2 in Dallas.

You say tomatoes I say tomatoes

xwalker · Nov 14, 2019

EGTuna said:
@xwalker is 100% right.

All of the Mike Shanahan derivatives are destroying the Cowboys with outside zone running, screens using the same stuff, and other things like boot action. This is why the Cowboys can inexplicably shut down Kamara two years in a row, but get gashed by Marlin Mack, CJ Anderson and Aaron Jones, The Vikings did the same this past week. Shocker, it worked. It's a scheme and talent problem. The scheme, if it were, should be different based on the opponent. 2-gap works well against Sean Payton when the players execute, but it's terrible vs. Shanahan-esque teams.

This is why Belichick is always light years ahead of everyone else. He adjusts every game. He's not perfect. He didn't have much of answer for the Ravens power running game, but that's because BB has built his defense to stop the likes of the Chiefs, (Colts with Luck), Pitt (with Ben), and other 3-WR base teams that play horizontally and vertically simultaneously. BB has built up a secondary capable of smothering a passing game, but is exposed against power running teams that can use the QB to run to get that extra blocker against a front7 that is lacking depth.

Based on the above I expect a) the Pats to screen pass the Cowboys to death via long drives and relentless 3rd down conversions that Dallas will have no answer for, and b) for them to mimic the Saints and Vikings scheme by using only 6 and 7 man boxes to stop Zeke and use their awesome secondary to double Cooper and put Gilmore on Gallup and McCourty1 & McCourty2 on Cobb/Jarwin/Witten. Dallas should run Dak at least 10 times vs. NE, but it will likely be 0.

I didn't watch the Pats-Ravens. Maybe I'll review it later.

I have studied the Pats defense this season and last.

It is interesting how much Belichick changes after winning the Super Bowl.

He was running a base 4-3 last year but went back to more 3-4 this year.

On many snaps it is not really a true 3-4 or 4-3.

I call it a Big LB defense. He has multiple big LBs (250 plus) that do a bit of everything.

He really only has 2 DL that are over 300 pounds, although Shelton is way over.

Regardless of the roster listing, all of the Pats front 7 players listed at 260 or below primarily play LB; although a couple of them sometimes put their hand down like a DE.

On 1st down it's often 3 big DL in a 3-4 alignment which mean 315 pound DL Guy at DE and 345 pound DL Shelton at NT.

On 2nd down it varies depending on down/distance.
2nd down often resembles a 4-3 with regards to positioning of players but the DEs are often big LBs standing up.

3rd downs often have 1 big (300 pounds or more) and the others are all LBs.

Patriots front 7 sorted by percent of snaps played this season:
80.60% ………… 6-3 ………… 255 ………… Jamie Collins Sr.
76.70% ………… 6-3 ………… 250 ………… Kyle Van Noy
58.50% ………… 6-3 ………… 260 ………… Dont'a Hightower
49.60% ………… 6-5 ………… 299 ………… Adam Butler
48.50% ………… 6-4 ………… 315 ………… Lawrence Guy
46.10% ………… 6-2 ………… 345 ………… Danny Shelton
46.10% ………… 6-2 ………… 260 ………… John Simon
34.50% ………… 6-2 ………… 255 ………… Ja'Whaun Bentley
29.80% ………… 6-4 ………… 260 ………… Shilique Calhoun
28.50% ………… 6-3 ………… 250 ………… Chase Winovich
24.00% ………… 6-0 ………… 238 ………… Elandon Roberts
19.60% ………… 6-5 ………… 275 ………… Deatrich Wise Jr.
7.50% ………… 6-3 ………… 299 ………… Byron Cowart

xwalker · Nov 14, 2019

Future said:
They run almost exclusively cover-3 and single high. The only time they ever go Cover 2 is third and long.

@Whyjerry said:

Rod runs a very basic cover 2 scheme and does his best to keep to 4 rushers. He doesn't understand that this defense is outdated due to rule changes and offensive scheme changes.

Future is correct.

The Cowboys run primarily Cover 3 or Single-High (both have 1 deep Safety).

They'll mix in a few snaps of 2-deep but it has been a small percent of the snaps.

They can run Cover 3 or Single from the same look. The responsibilities of the players just vary, especially how the CBs play.

The most they've used 2-deep this season was in the Vikings game with Thompson playing most of the snaps at SS.
- I'm certain that is due to Thompson's lack of range.

Much of their 2-deep looks are really more Cover 3 or single-high but with the SS back at about 2-deep depth and the FS at single-high depth.

jblaze2004 · Nov 14, 2019

whats bad is we know it but we choose not to fix it.

buybuydandavis · Nov 14, 2019

Future said:
But what it does is limit opportunities for downfield passing - we saw it for Minny and GB - and create TFLs. I mean, for all the griping about the run defense against Minny, it was screen passes and penalties that were the biggest problems early. We're talking about 100-something yards from two screens (with horrible LB efforts), and two iffy penalties. Take those away, and Dallas wins easy.

Most people don't get that there *are* upsides to what Marinelli is doing. Even just in the run game, the TFLs may more than make up for the longer runs given up by giving us one set of downs where the offense is significantly behind the chains. This is the flip side of preferring the dirty runs RB over guys with higher yards per carry.

Even not with screens, we're often eaten alive by any swing pass wide to a RB where the RB is a free runner. Easy yards on us. Don't know what that's about, but it's an impression I often get.

It does make sense that screens work on us though. The dline is working hard to get upfield. Screens are a natural counter to that.

BleedinBlue · Nov 14, 2019

so whats the solution , better DT? better LB? Better SS or FS?

Beating Marinelli's Scheme

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