60th anniversary of the "In Cold Blood" killings

MichaelWinicki · Nov 30, 2019

On November 15th, 1959, the Clutter family in Holcomb, Kansas were murdered by recently released from prison, Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who were looking to rob the supposed well-to-do family (and weren't) based on a tip by a fellow inmate.

The pair were captured in Las Vegas in the end of December and were subsequently found guilty and executed in 1965.

Truman Capote saw mention of the murders in a small newspaper article while in New York City. He went to Kansas to interview many associated with the case (including the accused) and eventually wrote the book "In Cold Blood" which combines fact with fiction and made Capote the most well known author in the country.

From my perspective this murder combined with the Charles Starkweather murder spree (Dec. '57/Jan. '58) ushered in the "modern crime" era.

In a related note a family of 4 (the Walkers) were shot to death in mid-December '59,m in a crime somewhat similar to the Clutter murders. It is known that Smith and Hickock were in Florida after the Clutter murders and even though they denied the connection they are still viewed as potential suspects. In 2012, the bodies of Smith and Hickock were exhumed and their DNA tested against that found on one of the victims, but the DNA sample found on the victim was too far gone to accurately match.

Runwildboys · Nov 30, 2019

MichaelWinicki said:
On November 15th, 1959, the Clutter family in Holcomb, Kansas were murdered by recently released from prison, Perry Smith and Richard Hickock, who were looking to rob the supposed well-to-do family (and weren't) based on a tip by a fellow inmate.

The pair were captured in Las Vegas in the end of December and were subsequently found guilty and executed in 1965.

Truman Capote saw mention of the murders in a small newspaper article while in New York City. He went to Kansas to interview many associated with the case (including the accused) and eventually wrote the book "In Cold Blood" which combines fact with fiction and made Capote the most well known author in the country.

From my perspective this murder combined with the Charles Starkweather murder spree (Dec. '57/Jan. '58) ushered in the "modern crime" era.

In a related note a family of 4 (the Walkers) were shot to death in mid-December '59,m in a crime somewhat similar to the Clutter murders. It is known that Smith and Hickock were in Florida after the Clutter murders and even though they denied the connection they are still viewed as potential suspects. In 2012, the bodies of Smith and Hickock were exhumed and their DNA tested against that found on one of the victims, but the DNA sample found on the victim was too far gone to accurately match.

I would've made sure the victim's DNA was viable, before exhuming the bodies of the suspects. The fact that they realized this afterward makes me think they may have just been wrong, and don't want to admit it.

Melonfeud · Nov 30, 2019

That Christopher Walken and Sean Penn flick triggered this reply, although it was titled "At close range" probably because their both 3 word titles with a center 'C' word, would be my only guess,,,er,,, reckon I'll read this threads O.p. now, as I kinda' like this "Michael" guy(half the time, anyway)

Edit: I've an DvD around here somewhere about Truman capote's life, I can't at the moment recall it's single worded movie title, but, SHEESE! that dude was protrayed in more than an "Ambiguously Gay kind of way" in it,I watched it with a gal who was visiting ,she seemed to enjoy it.

MichaelWinicki · Nov 30, 2019

Runwildboys said:
I would've made sure the victim's DNA was viable, before exhuming the bodies of the suspects. The fact that they realized this afterward makes me think they may have just been wrong, and don't want to admit it.

True.

At least one researcher believes the Walkers were killed by someone that was close to the family. One of the items stolen was the marriage certificate of the parents.

HungryLion · Nov 30, 2019

Nice pull by you Mike.

On this topic. Has anybody seen the “Innocent Man” series on Netflix. Based on the Novel by John Grisham. I read the book about 10 years or so ago. It was fascinating watching the series and the picture it gives into people who may or may not be wrongfully imprisoned for murders they did not commit.

MichaelWinicki · Nov 30, 2019

DakPresgoat said:
Nice pull by you Mike.

On this topic. Has anybody seen the “Innocent Man” series on Netflix. Based on the Novel by John Grisham. I read the book about 10 years or so ago. It was fascinating watching the series and the picture it gives into people who may or may not be wrongfully imprisoned for murders they did not commit.

Unfortunately there were a lot of them.

And the further you go back in history the worse it gets for several reasons.

Don't know if you've heard of the "Viscilla Axe Murders" of 1912, where 8 people were murdered while they slept.

There was always some loose evidence that this was not a one-off crime but the work of a serial killer.

Baseball stats guru Bill James has a side interest in true crime, anyway he and his daughter put in an incredible amount of work and the result was "The Man From The Train" in which they (successfully in my opinion) connected a group of similar murders from across the country.

Other than the gruesomeness of the various killings (the number of victims is staggering... over a 100 if I recall, making this murderer perhaps the greatest serial killer in the history of the US), the other sad fact is that another 7 people were executed by the justice system or by lynch mobs.

On top of that several others served some amount of time in prison because of the mistaken belief they were somehow connected to the killings in their area.

The entire affair is both sad and fascinating.

The book James and his daughter put together is terrific.

Maybe the most interesting being they actually name a potential suspect based on solid evidence.

NorthoftheRedRiver · Nov 30, 2019

I remember reading "In Cold Blood". It took some time for outsiders to be fingered for the crime. For months, that little community (and law enforcement) assumed that a local had done it. That was one of the most interesting parts of the story for me. The residents of that little town went through stage after stage of disbelief and suspicion and paranoia as they looked at each other . . . wondering.

MichaelWinicki · Nov 30, 2019

NorthoftheRedRiver said:
I remember reading "In Cold Blood". It took some time for outsiders to be fingered for the crime. For months, that little community (and law enforcement) assumed that a local had done it. That was one of the most interesting parts of the story for me. The residents of that little town went through stage after stage of disbelief and suspicion and paranoia as they looked at each other . . . wondering.

My wife had to read it in high school... And couldn't do it.

It frightened her too much.

HungryLion · Nov 30, 2019

MichaelWinicki said:
Unfortunately there were a lot of them.

And the further you go back in history the worse it gets for several reasons.

Don't know if you've heard of the "Viscilla Axe Murders" of 1912, where 8 people were murdered while they slept.

There was always some loose evidence that this was not a one-off crime but the work of a serial killer.

Baseball stats guru Bill James has a side interest in true crime, anyway he and his daughter put in an incredible amount of work and the result was "The Man From The Train" in which they (successfully in my opinion) connected a group of similar murders from across the country.

Other than the gruesomeness of the various killings (the number of victims is staggering... over a 100 if I recall, making this murderer perhaps the greatest serial killer in the history of the US), the other sad fact is that another 7 people were executed by the justice system or by lynch mobs.

On top of that several others served some amount of time in prison because of the mistaken belief they were somehow connected to the killings in their area.

The entire affair is both sad and fascinating.

The book James and his daughter put together is terrific.

Maybe the most interesting being they actually name a potential suspect based on solid evidence.

Sounds like an amazing read. I am going to order it off Amazon now. Thank you for the heads up.

I also have to ask my sister if she has read it. She is a forensic scientist and works in a crime lab. She reads stuff like this all the time.

Chrispierce · Dec 2, 2019

Seems just a mid west convict robbery killing based on false info the Clutters had a safe of money. The callus nature is very much in line with the profile on Perry. Bad parents,(if you can call them that) become wards of church,stunts in juvenile hall,committing petty theft,forging checks etc. Even in the service during Korean War,violent tendencies,start fights with his unit......the other while problems,not anything like Perry’s background though no less guilty. Yes,I can say without a doubt Perry was going to be involved in some type of crime capper spree or killings eventually. It’s similar to many backgrounds...abuse and lack of healthy normal family structure being common denominator.

Chrispierce · Dec 3, 2019

Hey Michael,you seem like a sleuth to me. So I’m going over the Manson case,and naturally come to the dead zone period where Manson is involved with The Process...I found that area near Spahn ranch quite a few fruit loop outfits going. Fountain of The World founded by Krishna Venta (disgruntled members blew him and the monestary up in ‘58...7 total killed) Now Manson did visit that place in the 60’s some monks there cared for him a couple days. On a side note,some of those members of Fountain of Youth later joined Jim Jones who were among the dead. Wow...lot of bad history going on here...so anyways,I can’t find anything much on Robert De Grimston and The Process in regards to Manson...but it’s very very clear it’s where Manson got much of his mubo jumbo from both cults. What’s your take on that? I mean I know he didn’t believe the Helter Skelter crap,just using to take advantage of people,but I’m stuck at trying find anything concrete between this De Grimston cult and Manson. Being they were from UK,you might know more on the origins and figured I’d ask you...if you don’t mind.

MichaelWinicki · Dec 3, 2019

Chrispierce said:
Hey Michael,you seem like a sleuth to me. So I’m going over the Manson case,and naturally come to the dead zone period where Manson is involved with The Process...I found that area near Spahn ranch quite a few fruit loop outfits going. Fountain of The World founded by Krishna Venta (disgruntled members blew him and the monestary up in ‘58...7 total killed) Now Manson did visit that place in the 60’s some monks there cared for him a couple days. On a side note,some of those members of Fountain of Youth later joined Jim Jones who were among the dead. Wow...lot of bad history going on here...so anyways,I can’t find anything much on Robert De Grimston and The Process in regards to Manson...but it’s very very clear it’s where Manson got much of his mubo jumbo from both cults. What’s your take on that? I mean I know he didn’t believe the Helter Skelter crap,just using to take advantage of people,but I’m stuck at trying find anything concrete between this De Grimston cult and Manson. Being they were from UK,you might know more on the origins and figured I’d ask you...if you don’t mind.

Interesting stuff to be sure.

Yeah, Manson knew how to control folks and had some "schooling" somewhere.

But also keep in mind how much time Manson spent in prison... And he was a pretty small guy, so he had to learn how to talk to people– He told people what they wanted to hear. That's a cult-building 101 building block.

The more I've read about why the Manson killings took place I'm more in the corner that it was all about a drug deal that had gone bad and Manson was scared to death because he had shot a guy that he believed was in the Black Panthers and that they (that group) was on his trail, so he had to come up with something (the killings) which would put the heat (he hoped) on the Black Panthers.

Chrispierce · Dec 4, 2019

MichaelWinicki said:
Interesting stuff to be sure.

Yeah, Manson knew how to control folks and had some "schooling" somewhere.

But also keep in mind how much time Manson spent in prison... And he was a pretty small guy, so he had to learn how to talk to people– He told people what they wanted to hear. That's a cult-building 101 building block.

The more I've read about why the Manson killings took place I'm more in the corner that it was all about a drug deal that had gone bad and Manson was scared to death because he had shot a guy that he believed was in the Black Panthers and that they (that group) was on his trail, so he had to come up with something (the killings) which would put the heat (he hoped) on the Black Panthers.

Yeah the drug deal sure got him moving in a frenzy. That’s the point where I notice paranoia ramp up. After I posted you,I came across Kenneth Anger and Bobby Beausoleil meeting in SF ‘66. Anger being influenced by Aleister Crowley and friends with Anton LaVey ...and that opened a panadoras box. Lot of evil things these people were all playing with,and with tragic consequences usually close by.

60th anniversary of the "In Cold Blood" killings

MichaelWinicki

"You want some?"

Runwildboys

Confused about stuff

Melonfeud

I Copy!,,, er,,,I guess,,,ah,,,maybe.

MichaelWinicki

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HungryLion

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MichaelWinicki

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NorthoftheRedRiver

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MichaelWinicki

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HungryLion

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Chrispierce

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Chrispierce

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MichaelWinicki

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Chrispierce

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