Image: Jourdan Lewis's right foot was on the goal line, ref blew it

PhillyCowboysFan · Dec 7, 2019

stiletto said:
I can't believe this is 6 pages but it is probably mostly because of posts like this that say "I can't believe that this thread is x pages". LOL Everyone knows it is where the ball is, not the foot. Geez.

Obviously everyone doesn’t. Lol

And the bad part is that I am seeing the names of some of the posters I thought had a real high football IQ advocating it was a touchback.

CB61 · Dec 7, 2019

PhillyCowboysFan said:
No actually that’s been the rule forever.

Well like I said I wasn't sure but they changed that rule about 15 to 20 years ago not exactly sure what the change is haven't looked it up but it always wasn't that

CB61 · Dec 7, 2019

PhillyCowboysFan said:
No actually that’s been the rule forever.

And actually the more I think about it your momentum has to carry you into the endzone for it to be a Touchback

CB61 · Dec 7, 2019

Runwildboys said:
I think you must be confusing it with a kick, where as soon as the returner touches the line it's not a touchback, and he has to try to bring it out.

Yes I just looked it up your momentum has to carry you into the endzone for it to be a Touchback

Cmac · Dec 7, 2019

Really?.....is that gonna define the totality of a disaster we all saw?

MarcusRock · Dec 7, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
From the rulebook:

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2019-nfl-rulebook/
From the Rulebook:
The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line.

So, it's true it's not where the ball is. Which seems odd to me, but there it is.

But I would have thought it was the *second* foot that established possession, and that was the toe tap on the 1 yard line ( or so ).

But then again, with all the going to the ground garbage, you could say he only "established possession" rolling out of bounds.

SECTION 5 SAFETY
ARTICLE 1. SAFETY. It is a Safety:
...
Exceptions:
It is not a safety:
...
(2) If a defensive player, in the field of play, intercepts a pass or catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick, and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession. The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line. (11-6-1)

Good work. Only took 5 full pages for someone to pull the actual rules and show that almost EVERYONE in the thread was wrong. Sometimes I get tired being the only one who does this (I lie. I love making whiners look foolish. I just couldn't be bothered to in this case because the tide was immediately against the whine, lol.)

FYI, Lewis didn't go to the ground and stayed on his feet the entire time so he did establish the time requirement to complete the catch but was nowhere near the endzone when the time element was met. So it looks like the 2nd foot established possession, yes, and his momentum carried him away from the end zone which negated any touchback talk.

Swanny · Dec 7, 2019

Wayne02 said:
Your assumption would be wrong.

Good to know

Brax · Dec 7, 2019

Blackthorn said:
@xwalker 06:09 / 00:40:14 of the condensed version
SMH,
The spot was bad on the interception. Jourdan Lewis's right foot was on the goal line (touchback). I was shocked that no one mentioned this. I was going nuts. The ball should have been on the 20. I am not making excuses, however this may have changed the complexity of the game. The team would have been more aggressive with the play calling which possible led to another TD.

The defensive captains, Coach Kris, Rod, Garrett should have went nuts on the terrible spot.

You should be respectful some time, no need to be a buttclown

Just as on a punt, if the defender foot touches the goal line it is a touchback. I reffed for over a decade, this is discussed in high school league ref meetings.

He should have argued with the ref about the spot when the ref told him they had won the challenge. This would have been a great time . He should have blew his lid, if he received a 15 yarder flag, it would have been one inch.

It is not where the foot is it is where the BALL is, come on you have to know this. spot was correct the only thing the photo shows is he got 2 feet in. No bad call no NFL against the DC.. Looks like this one JG did correctly because he knows the rules......

BoysForLife · Dec 7, 2019

Blackthorn said:
@xwalker 06:09 / 00:40:14 of the condensed version
SMH,
The spot was bad on the interception. Jourdan Lewis's right foot was on the goal line (touchback). I was shocked that no one mentioned this. I was going nuts. The ball should have been on the 20. I am not making excuses, however this may have changed the complexity of the game. The team would have been more aggressive with the play calling which possible led to another TD.

The defensive captains, Coach Kris, Rod, Garrett should have went nuts on the terrible spot.

You should be respectful some time, no need to be a buttclown

Just as on a punt, if the defender foot touches the goal line it is a touchback. I reffed for over a decade, this is discussed in high school league ref meetings.

He should have argued with the ref about the spot when the ref told him they had won the challenge. This would have been a great time . He should have blew his lid, if he received a 15 yarder flag, it would have been one inch.

First of all I think it was correct. I think in this instance the ball has to actually break the plane or at least that is my understanding

But either way even if someone who is not a Garrett fan, I don't think he could challenge. Turnovers are an automatic Booth review are they not? I don't think that is a play we could challenge unless my understanding of the challenge rules are incorrect

America's Cowboy · Dec 7, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
You cannot be serious.

Romo spent seasons where his first order of business was always "dodge the jailbreak", then think about throwing.

His first couple of seasons Romo did dodge around. Then what happened? CRACK!!! Then some more CRACK, then after OVER AND OVER.

I rest my case.

TheMarathonContinues · Dec 7, 2019

Runwildboys said:
And I said that. Well, technically I said they aren't "great", but my point was going back to you saying we should've beaten them and the Bears. The fact is, we're worse than both of those teams. We should be better....we should be much better...but we're not. This team makes such stupid mistakes at such stupid times, it's like Vince McMahon wrote the script.

Well when I say should I say that based on my expectations of this team. I should probably lower them but well it’s tough to lower them to that standard. Can’t beat the Bears? Yikes.....

buybuydandavis · Dec 7, 2019

PhillyCowboysFan said:
Everyone is confusing or comparing the “kickoff and punt return rules” and the “out of bounds rules” to the ball placement rules of a turnover.

See previous post
"(2) If a defensive player, in the field of play, intercepts a pass or"

https://cowboyszone.com/threads/jou...l-line-ref-blew-it.447842/page-6#post-9791566

buybuydandavis · Dec 7, 2019

MarcusRock said:
Good work. Only took 5 full pages for someone to pull the actual rules and show that almost EVERYONE in the thread was wrong. Sometimes I get tired being the only one who does this (I lie. I love making whiners look foolish. I just couldn't be bothered to in this case because the tide was immediately against the whine, lol.)

FYI, Lewis didn't go to the ground and stayed on his feet the entire time so he did establish the time requirement to complete the catch but was nowhere near the endzone when the time element was met. So it looks like the 2nd foot established possession, yes, and his momentum carried him away from the end zone which negated any touchback talk.

People don't go back to the rules because they're rationalizing their opinion, not trying to find what is true.

Always gotta go back to the original transcripts, laws, texts, etc.

Thanks for the report on Lewis not going to the ground. I'm too cheap to buy NFL replay. That was a *really* good catch.

Note how perverse the going to the ground rule is. You can only tell that he completed the catch and had possession in bounds by looking at what happened well after those events.

"his original momentum carries him into his end zone"

I think that his momentum taking his step onto the goal line counts as him being carried into the end zone. They don't say "carries the ball" into the end zone, they say "carries him into his end zone".

One could quibble that he wasn't carried into the end zone, but was already there. But if he's *already* in the endzone, and remains so while in the field of play, then it's all the more a touchback, isn't it?

buybuydandavis · Dec 7, 2019

Runwildboys said:
I could maybe see a case being made, if Lewis had gone OB at the pylon, but he went OB at the one.

Did he? His last foot in bounds was on the goal line.

What determines where he went out of bounds? His last foot inbounds? His first body part out of bounds? Where the ball is when his first body part is out of bounds?

If anyone can show a section of the rulebook that applies better to the situation, go to it. But saying that the section I pointed out just doesn't apply doesn't answer the question of what section *does* apply.

ColoradoCowboy · Dec 7, 2019

Man, he is going to be in SO much trouble with our coaches for catching that other team's pass.

MarcusRock · Dec 7, 2019

buybuydandavis said:
"his original momentum carries him into his end zone"

I think that his momentum taking his step onto the goal line counts as him being carried into the end zone. They don't say "carries the ball" into the end zone, they say "carries him into his end zone".

One could quibble that he wasn't carried into the end zone, but was already there. But if he's *already* in the endzone, and remains so while in the field of play, then it's all the more a touchback, isn't it?

I think the language means if the defender was running in the same direction as the receiver towards the end zone. Lewis was shading the opposite way coming out of the end zone and ended up 98% in the field of play. If possession was established when his second foot got down, that second foot put him inside the 1. Much better case if he knocked the pylon over but he strided to the outside of it.

charron · Dec 7, 2019

TonyS said:
Nice catch for him and you and another indictment on Jason Garrett's incompetence, not that we needed more.

How? It was challenged do they review the catch and review the spot. Nothing a coach could do.

Blackthorn · Dec 7, 2019

stiletto said:
I can't believe this is 6 pages but it is probably mostly because of posts like this that say "I can't believe that this thread is x pages". LOL Everyone knows it is where the ball is, not the foot. Geez.

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2019-nfl-rulebook/ (2) If a defensive player, in the field of play, intercepts a pass or catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick, and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession. The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line. (11-6-1)

MarcusRock said:
Good work. Only took 5 full pages for someone to pull the actual rules and show that almost EVERYONE in the thread was wrong. Sometimes I get

That is on me, I should have posted it, I am in the middle of final grades, research projects and fall commencements. A clear oversight.

MarcusRock said:
Almost none of them know what the rules are. The average football fan doesn't read let alone reads football rules. The refs are the default kneejerk excuse for losses no matter what. Almost none of these types of threads existed after the first 3 weeks.

You know me better than that. I did not do a kneejerk and blame the ref. I actually stated no excuses.

Jake said:
It's obvious some of our fans don't know the rules.

That is why I pointed out the mistake

PhillyCowboysFan said:
The same rule as a punt or kickoff does not apply on an interception. The ball would have had to be on the goaline not a body part for the interception to be ruled a touchback.

nope, not the case, you are incorrect. The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line.

buybuydandavis said:
From the rulebook:

https://operations.nfl.com/the-rules/2019-nfl-rulebook/
From the Rulebook:
(2) If a defensive player, in the field of play, intercepts a pass or catches or recovers a fumble, backward pass, scrimmage kick, free kick, or fair catch kick, and his original momentum carries him into his end zone where the ball is declared dead in his team’s possession. The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line. (11-6-1)

Thanks for posting. I thought it was in the original thread. Should have been on the twenty. Could have made a difference. Garrett was let down from upstairs. They should have told him it was a touchback. That is the challenge Garrett should have presented, Garrett is animated with his arms, he should have signaled touch while presenting the challenge.

Runwildboys said:
An interception is the same as a reception. The ball has to touch the plane.

The ball belongs to the defensive team at the spot where the player’s foot or other body part touched the ground to establish possession. If that spot is in the end zone, the result of the play is a touchback, even if the ball is not on, above, or beyond the goal line. (11-6-1)

@xwalker , Chime in buddy

charron said:
How? It was challenged do they review the catch and review the spot. Nothing a coach could do.

Yes, Garret should have challenged it was catch with a touchback.

RustyBourneHorse · Dec 7, 2019

I'm seriously having the time of my life in Chicago!!

RustyBourneHorse · Dec 7, 2019

I know a lot of people at the con, and I've made so many friends!!! I'm so happy!!! This trip has been worth every bit of money I've spent!

Image: Jourdan Lewis's right foot was on the goal line, ref blew it

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