The case for Pollard

xwalker

Well-Known Member
Messages
56,908
Reaction score
64,316
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
And there have been even more w/ similar build who were not able to carry the load due to size/build. So, going by percentages, he's unlikely to.

The more I look back at the size of great NFL RBs, the more comical the original statement becomes.

You can't just hand wave and claim "going on percentages".

Percentages are against players having multi-year success in the NFL.

To look at percentages it would have to be RB that had legit NFL ability but broke down due to injury issues.

Those numbers would have to be compared between "smaller" RBs and bigger RBs with regards to the percentage that "broke down" within a short time frame but in a time frame that was long enough to verify that they had legit NFL talent to be long term RBs if they didn't break down.

There are many RBs that flash every year and then fade away, but many are not due to "breaking down" but are due to limited talent.

Walter Payton: 5-10, 200

LT: 5-10, 215

Terrell Davis: 5-11, 210

Curtis Martin: 5-11, 210
 

CowboysDrew

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,406
Reaction score
5,688
I don't see the comparisons.

Dunbar was a scat back. Pollard is not a scat back.
You see Pollard churning and running thru arm tackles for additional forwarding yards. You didn't see Dunbar busting thru tackles.
You see the power in Pollard's game - that's never been a trait of Dunbar.

That was the point I was making, I guess I went about it in an unclear way. Pollard is a better complementary back than Dunbar. He has speed burst and the ability to add power and break tackles.

I always felt Dunbar was too limited to be a relief/3rd down guy. Pollard has the pass catching element to his game too that when developed more will make him even better.

He's a guy that can do it all, or seems so.
 

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
It's actually been factually disproven that running the ball "wears defenses down".
And it even shows in Zeke's performance himself. 4.6 yards per carry in first half, 4.0 Carrie's in the second half.
So Zeke didn't tenderize anything or make anything easier for Pollard, only difference is the skill position players around Pollard were worse than when Zeke was in.
I would love to see the factual study you refer to. It goes against every analyst and pundit's decree about TOP, the running game and the impact it has on a defense.
 

Aviano90

Go Seahawks!!!
Messages
16,758
Reaction score
24,485
I would love to see the factual study you refer to. It goes against every analyst and pundit's decree about TOP, the running game and the impact it has on a defense.
You guys are just trying to use some high level philosophy to try and diminish Pollard’s game. Sorry, but Pollard wasn’t successful because Zeke tenderized the defense. The Rams run defense was poor all game long. Pollard just demonstrated the burst and speed to exploit the defense for big gains and Zeke didn’t. It clearly showed why people have been claiming Zeke has lost a step. And Pollard isn’t even all that fast. His home run only registered at 20.03 MPH, which is much slower than Zeke was in 2016. But he still looked much faster than Zeke has demonstrated this year.
 

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
You guys are just trying to use some high level philosophy to try and diminish Pollard’s game. Sorry, but Pollard wasn’t successful because Zeke tenderized the defense. The Rams run defense was poor all game long. Pollard just demonstrated the burst and speed to exploit the defense for big gains and Zeke didn’t. It clearly showed why people have been claiming Zeke has lost a step. And Pollard isn’t even all that fast. His home run only registered at 20.03 MPH, which is much slower than Zeke was in 2016. But he still looked much faster than Zeke has demonstrated this year.
I think Pollard and Zeke are the perfect combination of thunder and lightening for an offensive running attack. Pollard is most definitely quicker and more elusive than Zeke, but Zeke is an extremely talented, big game player who is the prototypical bell cow back.
 

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,324
Reaction score
10,736
I would love to see the factual study you refer to. It goes against every analyst and pundit's decree about TOP, the running game and the impact it has on a defense.
Here you go-
TOP doesn't do anything for the defense other than giving the opposing offense less drives. That's why per drive stats are so much more informational than total points/yards

And I'm not meaning to sound rude. If it's coming off that way.
 
Last edited:

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
Here you go-
TOP doesn't do anything for the defense other than giving the opposing offense less drives. That's why per drive stats are so much more informational than total points/yards

Thanks for that...interesting stuff. Odd how we see week to week defenses wear down when they are on the field for most of the game, particularly when their offense is susceptible to a flurry of 3 and outs. The Cowboys defense definitely struggles when they take on a heavy load of field time. Chip Kelly was run out of Philly due in part to his offense getting killed in TOP and the defense not being able to hold up.
 

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,324
Reaction score
10,736
Thanks for that...interesting stuff. Odd how we see week to week defenses wear down when they are on the field for most of the game, particularly when their offense is susceptible to a flurry of 3 and outs. The Cowboys defense definitely struggles when they take on a heavy load of field time. Chip Kelly was run out of Philly due in part to his offense getting killed in TOP and the defense not being able to hold up.

You see, is it that they are wearing down from three and outs becaus of conditioning.... or is it that they have more opportunities/drives to fail/succeed points since the offense is going 3 and out and it's in a shorter period of time?
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,054
Reaction score
46,962
The more I look back at the size of great NFL RBs, the more comical the original statement becomes.

You can't just hand wave and claim "going on percentages".

Percentages are against players having multi-year success in the NFL.

To look at percentages it would have to be RB that had legit NFL ability but broke down due to injury issues.

Those numbers would have to be compared between "smaller" RBs and bigger RBs with regards to the percentage that "broke down" within a short time frame but in a time frame that was long enough to verify that they had legit NFL talent to be long term RBs if they didn't break down.

There are many RBs that flash every year and then fade away, but many are not due to "breaking down" but are due to limited talent.

Walter Payton: 5-10, 200

LT: 5-10, 215

Terrell Davis: 5-11, 210

Curtis Martin: 5-11, 210
I know. (That's what you were doing!!!!!)

It's not just height and/or weight, it's build. Lightly built RB's generally are best used in a time share, and mostly don't last when used in a bellcow fashion.

Basically, two players can be the same height/weight, but one can easily be built more solidly than the other.

And on the flip side of that, huge RB's generally don't last either. They're just too big which means they take too many hits. The exceptions are RB's such as Bettis, who had the abilty to "get skinny" to get through the hole.

I find it comical when NFL people talk about power backs. In today's NFL, you're simply not going to run over people w/ any consistency. Big guys are mostly going to get stymied at the LOS.

It appears to me that the longest lasting RB's generally are built low, w/ a build of 5-8 to 5-11. Quite simply, they are not going to take as many hits because they don't have as much body to hit. There are exception, of course, such as Stephen Jackson and Marcus Allen, but mostly the guys that last are shorter.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,054
Reaction score
46,962
I think Pollard and Zeke are the perfect combination of thunder and lightening for an offensive running attack. Pollard is most definitely quicker and more elusive than Zeke, but Zeke is an extremely talented, big game player who is the prototypical bell cow back.
Yeah, they are the perfect combo, and I love them both.
 

cern

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,900
Reaction score
21,050
Watching the replay of rams game on nfl channel. Zeke just tearing rams apart. Looks fast.
 

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
You see, is it that they are wearing down from three and outs becaus of conditioning.... or is it that they have more opportunities/drives to fail/succeed points since the offense is going 3 and out and it's in a shorter period of time?
Not sure if you can apply a single dynamic to the wear down phenomenon. A team like the Saints can score a lot of points quickly making the opposition one dimensional and forced to move the ball methodically and eat up clock. The Saints have often come up on the sort end of the TOP meter but win by 20.
 

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
Watching the replay of rams game on nfl channel. Zeke just tearing rams apart. Looks fast.
He was a load to get to the ground in that game. I hope he rediscovered his mojo and keeps up that wrecking ball style of play.
 

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,324
Reaction score
10,736
Not sure if you can apply a single dynamic to the wear down phenomenon. A team like the Saints can score a lot of points quickly making the opposition one dimensional and forced to move the ball methodically and eat up clock. The Saints have often come up on the sort end of the TOP meter but win by 20.

Racking up points to create large leagues isn't remotely the same though, right?

All I'm saying is that it's been statically proven incorrect from the link I provided that defenses wear(is it actually ware* down in this case) down from the running game.

In theory it makes sense, but offensive players get just as tired as defensive. RBs even more so.
 

nightrain

Since 1971
Messages
14,503
Reaction score
24,338
Racking up points to create large leagues isn't remotely the same though, right?

All I'm saying is that it's been statically proven incorrect from the link I provided that defenses wear(is it actually ware* down in this case) down from the running game.

In theory it makes sense, but offensive players get just as tired as defensive. RBs even more so.
Offensive players have a tremendous advantage in knowing where the play is going and where to be during the play. Not all players on offense need to give their all every play as much as players on defense do.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,054
Reaction score
46,962
Watching the replay of rams game on nfl channel. Zeke just tearing rams apart. Looks fast.
Yes. Zeke was very good and instrumental in the injury.

I seriously feel as if he came in out of shape due to the holdout, and is finally getting into shape.
 
Top