DT Player Measurables

It's a one-gap league now. There's no home for a big run-stuffing DT unless he can also penetrate and pass rush.

Now some guys like Vita Vea, Jordan Phillips, and Dexter Lawrence are so talented that they can do both, but 340 pound DTs are a dying breed just like 6'5" 260 in-line TEs like Witten. You need to be able to play in the passing game today or you're not playing at all, and college front-seven defenders are coming into the NFL at lighter weights to play faster.

So don't look for a fat guy. Look for a guy at any size who can control a single gap and beat his man pass rushing.

Future said:

Making a read slows down pass rush.

Getting blown off the ball has little to do with size, and has nothing to do with an LB's ability to stack and shed.

It's not a big man's league, because it isn't the 1990s. The Saints, Colts, Pats and Packers of ~2005-15 should have slowed this conversation, and the rule changes should have put it to bed completely. Jason Garrett never got it, and it has killed this organization for a decade. It is a league where getting your skill players into space is how you win. You don't need big men to do that.

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All DL make reads every down. It's a fact of football. It's a matter of emphasis and technique. No scheme says, "ignore the double team coming at you."

When technique is equal size and strength very much so matters.

A LB has to take good angles to stack and shed. If they play straight up then they want to be square; if they play off shoulder then they need to get to their leverage. Either way, when the DL is coming back it eliminates angles they can attack the block with. It also makes it harder to attack downhill to simply fill a gap.

The Patriots start guys like Branch and Wilfork who are 350 lbs. The Packers have played with Raji and Pickett. The Saints played with Jon Jenkins and Malcolm Brown. The Colts have started Al Woods recently. All 330+.

Future said:

Pass rush is 4000x more important than stopping the run.

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What's important is being able to stop or at least make the other team earn yards no matter which way they are attacking you. When you have a proven weakness, the smart teams will beat you to death with it. No need to pass if they are gashing you on the ground.

There is a saying in the manufacturing world, "the most important part is the part you don't have". ie, being great at one thing & poor at another means you aren't going to go far.

FuzzyLumpkins said:

All DL make reads every down. It's a fact of football. It's a matter of emphasis and technique. No scheme says, "ignore the double team coming at you."

When technique is equal size and strength very much so matters.

A LB has to take good angles to stack and shed. If they play straight up then they want to be square; if they play off shoulder then they need to get to their leverage. Either way, when the DL is coming back it eliminates angles they can attack the block with. It also makes it harder to attack downhill to simply fill a gap.

The Patriots start guys like Branch and Wilfork who are 350 lbs. The Packers have played with Raji and Pickett. The Saints played with Jon Jenkins and Malcolm Brown. The Colts have started Al Woods recently. All 330+.

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This isn't true for DL. Marinelli's defense - to a flaw, probably - doesn't make reads.

Size is irrelevant, strength matters.

Sure. LBs need to take good angles. That doesn't mean you need big DTs, because you don't need to be big to hold the POA.

Uh, they won b/c of what they did on offense, that's the point. I mention those teams b/c they all created an environment where their offense executed so quickly and did so well to exploit matchups that it didn't really matter what happened up front. They had big guys b/c they ran 3-4s...that's irrelevant now that teams are in nickel 65% of the time. The teams weren't good because of those guys.

McKDaddy said:

What's important is being able to stop or at least make the other team earn yards no matter which way they are attacking you. When you have a proven weakness, the smart teams will beat you to death with it. No need to pass if they are gashing you on the ground.

There is a saying in the manufacturing world, "the most important part is the part you don't have". ie, being great at one thing & poor at another means you aren't going to go far.

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In the salary cap era, there's no such thing as not having a weakness on defense and having a good offense. Dallas is as balanced as any team in the NFL, in that regard.

The Cowboys weren't poor at run or pass defense, relative to the rest of the league.

Future said:

In the salary cap era, there's no such thing as not having a weakness on defense and having a good offense. Dallas is as balanced as any team in the NFL, in that regard.

The Cowboys weren't poor at run or pass defense, relative to the rest of the league.

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Not on average but their run weakness was clearly exploited by several teams torching them over the past couple seasons (some due to scheme, some due to lack of size\strength). Even when not being torched, Dallas has been poor at stopping short yardage situations for years. i see these as weaknesses that can't be overlooked by saying pass rush is more important.

McKDaddy said:

Not on average but their run weakness was clearly exploited by several teams torching them over the past couple seasons (some due to scheme, some due to lack of size\strength). Even when not being torched, Dallas has been poor at stopping short yardage situations for years. i see these as weaknesses that can't be overlooked by saying pass rush is more important.

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They don't get torched any more than any other team.

Please show me where they're worse in short yardage.

Pass rush is more important, than run defense, because running the ball doesn't matter.

Future said:

They don't get torched any more than any other team.

Please show me where they're worse in short yardage.

Pass rush is more important, than run defense, because running the ball doesn't matter.

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Really? Colts, Rams, GB didn't torch them?
How many times have they made the stop when it has been short yardage? Half the time the refs were raising the TD signal before the ball was snapped.
Ok, you need to scurry on over & tell the league there is no more running because it doesn't matter. Ball just goes back to the original spot til you decide to pass it. We'll call it the "Future" rule.

Future said:

This isn't true for DL. Marinelli's defense - to a flaw, probably - doesn't make reads.

Size is irrelevant, strength matters.

Sure. LBs need to take good angles. That doesn't mean you need big DTs, because you don't need to be big to hold the POA.

Uh, they won b/c of what they did on offense, that's the point. I mention those teams b/c they all created an environment where their offense executed so quickly and did so well to exploit matchups that it didn't really matter what happened up front. They had big guys b/c they ran 3-4s...that's irrelevant now that teams are in nickel 65% of the time. The teams weren't good because of those guys.

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Marinelli has his DL make reads; he just calls them screws. They have variable assignments depending on what the offense does.

You can use leverage to anchor but leverage only goes so far. There comes a point where leverage doesn't matter relative to the force and momentum it is trying to hold back. That of course requires the smaller DL to be perfect because if they do not recognize quickly enough where the block is coming from or are slow off the ball they will get mauled. Then of course offense has the advantage of knowing how they are going to attack and from where as well as the snap count.

You mentioned a bunch of teams that you claimed did not require big DT to succeed. You were wrong. All of those teams started mammoth DT. We can discuss those players snap counts as well if you would like. Wilfork played ~ 75% of snaps for NE. Malcolm Brown was there for 50%. Raji 60%. Pickett 50%.

Nickel only means you have 5 DBs. Nickel used on early downs often see big DT to hedge the issue. In fact, it is safer to go more nickel when you have a mammoth keeping OL off the second level. That frees the extra S or CB from eating an OL. There are situation like 3rd and long or late in the game up multiple scores where you can sell out for the pass but that definitely isn't 65% of the game.

I get what you are trying to claim but outside of a few years where Manning -possibly the best QB all time- was in his prime, no one has actually done what you claimed. Even then that defense only worked when all pro SS Bob Sanders was healthy so they could cheat 8 man fronts all the time.

beware_d-ware said:

It's a one-gap league now. There's no home for a big run-stuffing DT unless he can also penetrate and pass rush.

Now some guys like Vita Vea, Jordan Phillips, and Dexter Lawrence are so talented that they can do both, but 340 pound DTs are a dying breed just like 6'5" 260 in-line TEs like Witten. You need to be able to play in the passing game today or you're not playing at all, and college front-seven defenders are coming into the NFL at lighter weights to play faster.

So don't look for a fat guy. Look for a guy at any size who can control a single gap and beat his man pass rushing.

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Not too sure I agree with this. I think it's the complete opposite. Obviously it's better that they can rush the passer but we're seeing a lot of teams with a big run stuffer (admittedly most in a 3-4).

Danny Shelton - Patriots
DJ Reader - Texans
Linval Jones - Vikings
DaQuon Jones - Titans

These guys aren't offering much more than the ability to push the middle of the pile and stuff the run. If you can find a Jordan Phillips that's great but most teams have a big guy in the rotation that won't get double-figure sacks.

Imagine how good we would be at dline if David Irving and Randy Gregory could pass a drug test

David Irving was entering his prime.

Ekspozed said:

Bears have Hicks and Goldman which are big dudes. Their ends also listed at 300 each. Ravens have BIG dts. Bills.
Big guys can also get push in the middle.

Though, a better scheme in general where the dts aren't stunting every down, and adding in more than 5 blitzes a game will also do wonder for the run and pass defense.

There are special players like Donald and the rookie the bills got that are smaller and still strong enough and good enough to demand and occupy double teams, just like there are guys that are 340 that are too slow and stiff and can still get ran around or moved.

Look for a player not a body type.

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Hicks only played in 5 games and Goldman has no more bulk than Antwan Woods.

The fact the Ravens have big guys doesn’t go against what I said.

LatinMind said:

Ill remind all of you, Dallas ran a 3-4 defense with a guy playing NT that was under 300, Glover. Ill take DTs that play with good technique and know how to use their hands over a 340lb slob every time

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We need another glover

jblaze2004 said:

Imagine how good we would be at dline if David Irving and Randy Gregory could pass a drug test

David Irving was entering his prime.

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Pisses me off just thinking about the waste of talent

SeanLee50 said:

Danny Shelton would be awesome here. I know he’s more a 3-4 NT, but he would be awesome to pair next to Quinn or Woods

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I wanted him when he was available in the draft. Then when he was available after Cleveland. He is the explosive type but also rock solid against the run. He might not be good for more than 3-4 sacks a year but neither is Maliek Collins or any of our other DTs. He’s bigger and stronger though. But...he’s not a SPARQ guy and that’s all that matters around here. It’s a shame.

Future said:

Every LBer does. Doesn't mean it's the best way to build a defense.

And Ray Lewis didn't play in this league. Pass rush is 4000x more important than stopping the run.

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Funny how the best teams with the best pass rush have these monsters actively contributing and getting praise on their team when you look at the squads who have won recently and continue to win and are still active in the playoffs.

The key is having a big guy active in the run and pass down situations.

All the teams playing football this weekend especially the front runners have a guy:
Derrick Nnadi in KC
Deforest Buckner in Frisco
Michael Peirce in Baltimore
DJ Reader in Houston
Jarren Reed in Seattle
Kenny Clark in Green Bay
Linval Joseph in Minnesota
Daquan Jones in Tennessee

Daquan actually had a cup of coffee with us if I am not mistaken.

Reed and Buckner pile up sacks.

Joseph has always been a personal favorite of mine.



These guys aren't just two down plodders. Jones offers the least pass rush of them all admittedly. These guys are studs.

Clark made Mike Daniels expendable in Green Bay and he offers a nice little pass rush in his own right.

The issue is guys like Nick Hayden don't get it done.

They're just a warm.body.

People want a jelly roll stud who shakes and bakes.

Ekspozed said:

Hall of famer Ray Lewis preferred and played better throughout his career with a bigger DT in the middle to occupy blocks.

It's not easy to win every matchup when you're 80 lbs lighter than the guards running at you with a full head of steam with the rb right behind them because our dt took themselves out of the play.

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Speaking of Crazy Ray Lewis, he might be a good LB coach. He would literally shoot off your knee caps if you don’t make a play.

Future said:

B/c the players we're talking about don't collapse the pocket. NFL DTs who collapse the pocket don't need to be 330 lbs to do it.

Collapsing the pocket is about leverage and explosion. NFL OL are too strong and athletic to get pushed simply b/c they're smaller.

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Fletcher Cox

Future said:

They don't get torched any more than any other team.

Please show me where they're worse in short yardage.

Pass rush is more important, than run defense, because running the ball doesn't matter.

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Running the ball doesn't matter? How exactly did the Rams beat Dallas in the Divisional Round of '18? How did Tennessee just beat NE? How did Dallas crush LA this year? How did the beginnings of banged-up Philly beat Green Bay and Buffalo this year? RUNNING THE BALL!!!!!!!!!!!! If you're less than stellar against the run, you have really no shot unless you are consistently way ahead on the scoreboard.

JeffInDC said:

Folks, I know we're knee deep into the new Coaching Staff hires and whether we like them or not, but I decided to take a slight detour for a second. The discussion about the "Big DT's" got me wondering what is everyone's desired size/weight/arm length/etc. for a Big DT. For me, as much as I love the Ted Washington's of the past (the GIANT 6'5", 350+ guy), I prefer the shorter, squatty Casey Hampton/Gilbert Brown-type (6'1"-6'2", 325+ PREFERABLY with at least 32" arm length). Why? I was always told that when it comes to line play, low man usually wins. Just seems like the shorter guys never have as many leverage issues as the taller guys. Just my 2 cents. Skewer away...…………………….

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I want the DTs to be guys that can't fit into jeans. Not any type of jean that can be purchased by mortal men. I mean guys that need highly customized jeans for oddly shaped, large men.