West Coast Offense?

big dog cowboy · Jan 8, 2020

percyhoward said:
No. That's why they should be understood. Any statistic that puts Prescott ahead of Aikman probably needs to be adjusted for era, for example.

But that has nothing to do with the target-depth statistics I just gave you. Those are all for 2019, so no cross-era confusion involved. That's just somebody making a note of how far a pass travels through the air. And that's exactly what you mean when you say "dink and dunk." It ain't rocket science to watch a ball go past the line of scrimmage at the 50-yard line, see it caught at the 30, and record the fact that the pass traveled 20 yards past the line of scrimmage.

It's easy to ignore something, but the easiest option isn't always the best one.

DCreppinBoysfan · Jan 8, 2020

erod said:
Dak likes to dink and dunk, so it should be a good fit.

It’s the opposite I think. He has wide open passes underneath and in the flat that he constantly ignores. If McCarthy could teach Dak how to take what the defense always gives him we’ll be a better offense

Zman5 · Jan 8, 2020

MikeB80 said:
they had excellent running backs in philly with mcnabb and very good tight ends along with a very good offensive line. He was a terrific deep ball thrower and even though they were rooted in the west coast offense it was a mixture of many peoples interpretations of the walsh offense. They were a physical power running team that beat you up on both sides of the ball and like to throw deep.

I don't view Prescott as a better passer than mcnabb tbh. Very similar. Tough and can take a hit but very inaccurate. Mcnabb was a better deep ball thrower.

I think you are getting the current Eagles and the Eagles from early 2000 mixed up. I wouldn't consider Chad Lewis being a very good tight end. In 2002 and 2003, two years they went to the NFCC game, he had 42 receptions for 398 yards and 23 receptions 293 yards. He was very average TE. He wasn't anywhere close to what Ertz is now.

Westbrooke was a very good RB but he isn't better than Zeke and nowhere near the physical power runner Zeke is. Our Oline is better than any OL Donovan had . Donovan was a better deep ball passer but Prescott is better at intermmediate/short passes. What the McNabb era Eagles had was an excellent offensive coach who had a great scheme and a great defense.

There is no valid reason to believe Prescott couldn't succeed in the WCO due to his accuracy when Donavan who was more inaccurate was able to succeed due to the scheme and his HC.

dallas72 · Jan 8, 2020

erod said:
I know exactly what it is. Bill Walsh was its founder.

It's a passing offense designed to work like a run offense with lots of short swing passes and slants mixed in with the run game. It's designed to set up occasional deeper throws, but stays mostly within 10 yards of the line of scrimmage.

McCarthy is more of a run guy by preference. I don't think this will be a WCO in the end.

Huh? McCarthy isnt a run guy at all ..Did u watch GB w him? Was ranked between 24-28th every year

erod · Jan 9, 2020

dallas72 said:
Huh? McCarthy isnt a run guy at all ..Did u watch GB w him? Was ranked between 24-28th every year

He ran it more with Farve. He prefers to run the ball, but he didn't with Rodgers. We don't have Aaron Rodgers.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 9, 2020

Redball Express said:
Interesting.

I never have paid attention to WCO except when Walsh and Montana were running it.

Times have changed.

Thanx.

Sure thing RE.

MikeB80 · Jan 9, 2020

Zman5 said:
I think you are getting the current Eagles and the Eagles from early 2000 mixed up. I wouldn't consider Chad Lewis being a very good tight end. In 2002 and 2003, two years they went to the NFCC game, he had 42 receptions for 398 yards and 23 receptions 293 yards. He was very average TE. He wasn't anywhere close to what Ertz is now.

Westbrooke was a very good RB but he isn't better than Zeke and nowhere near the physical power runner Zeke is. Our Oline is better than any OL Donovan had . Donovan was a better deep ball passer but Prescott is better at intermmediate/short passes. What the McNabb era Eagles had was an excellent offensive coach who had a great scheme and a great defense.

There is no valid reason to believe Prescott couldn't succeed in the WCO due to his accuracy when Donavan who was more inaccurate was able to succeed due to the scheme and his HC.

im not confusing the current eagles team with anybody. Andy reid always had a good physical offensive line and a good group of tight ends. Not great but good and played well in his system. Chad Lewis, LJ Smith, Matt Schobel and Brent celek were good players.

They had good running games also and played great defense. A lot of good rb's and jon Ritchie was a good fullback. We had to watch Duce Staley, Brian Westbrook, Correll Buckhalter kick our tails for years.

anyway what this discussion about?

MikeB80 · Jan 9, 2020

dallas72 said:
Huh? McCarthy isnt a run guy at all ..Did u watch GB w him? Was ranked between 24-28th every year

How did ryan grant and eddie lacy have all those 1000 yard seasons then? Running the ball will not be an issue here.

Zman5 · Jan 9, 2020

MikeB80 said:
im not confusing the current eagles team with anybody. Andy reid always had a good physical offensive line and a good group of tight ends. Not great but good and played well in his system. Chad Lewis, LJ Smith, Matt Schobel and Brent celek were good players.

They had good running games also and played great defense. A lot of good rb's and jon Ritchie was a good fullback. We had to watch Duce Staley, Brian Westbrook, Correll Buckhalter kick our tails for years.

anyway what this discussion about?

Your wrong assumption about Dak not being able to succeed in the WCO because of his accuracy when McNabb who was more inaccurate had success.

Ranched · Jan 9, 2020

Speaking of the Egals....

garyo1954 · Jan 9, 2020

Where are yall getting this notion McCarthy is a run guy? I'll go out on a limb and say now the only straight up Run First offense in the East will be Ron Rivera in Washington. Not sure what to expect from Joe Judge since he's bringing along Daniel Jones but he has Shaquon to help his young QB along. Speculate he'll run a variation of Erhardt-Perkins like Bill.

McCarthy likes to throw early and often

While McCarthy has only recently professed his love for analytics, he was already (perhaps unknowingly) more or less in line with one set of football analytics that suggests running the ball on first down is more often than not a bad strategy. McCarthy had a tendency to call pass plays on first down almost twice as often as he’d call run plays on first down.

This likely wasn’t some adherence to analytics but more so a reflection of his preference to air it out. For McCarthy, running the ball has usually been seen as optional, not mandatory - another stark contrast to Garrett. Only five times in his 13 years calling plays did McCarthy have a running back with over 240 carries in a single season, and each of those running backs (Ahman Green, Ryan Grant twice, and Eddie Lacy twice) turned in 1,000+ rushing seasons and averaging at least four yards per carry.

https://www.bloggingtheboys.com/202...s-offensive-scheme-kellen-moore-jason-garrett

This should make you happy if you're a Zeke guy. It should reduce the risk of injury and perhaps keep him around a couple more years. Feeding Zeke doesn't (IMO) mean he's going to change his stripes and sit back handing the ball off 30 times a game.

buybuydandavis · Jan 9, 2020

ABQCOWBOY said:
I think it's a fail. To run a WCO, or even an offense with strong elements that aren't necessarily pure WCO, it takes excellent footwork and very strong practiced mechanics. You have to have command of the offense, you have to be able to throw into tight windows and you must be very disciplined of your reads. None of those things are strengths of Dak IMO. His skills are stronger else where.

I feel like Dak just started getting a decent handle on our old Offense. I don't see how going to a different Offense is going to help. But hey, if you are going to replace the coaching staff, you are going to have to deal with chance. I just don't love this HC.

JMO

The horizontal aspect is bad for Dak. He doesn't see the coverage players are running into very well. That's where INTs come from. More outs and swing passes. And early ins for the wideouts. That has been missing from Gallup in particular. He gets singled, so they back off a little on him. Quick ins could cash in on that.

I don't think any particular system is the way to go in the NFL anymore. Take some of each, matching your players and the matchups of the opponent.

buybuydandavis · Jan 9, 2020

fansince68 said:
West coast offense=donk, dink and Dak on steroids.

Dak will be fine with it and Witten will play another 5 years.

West Coast is about YAC. Witten has got to go.

MikeB80 · Jan 10, 2020

Zman5 said:
Your wrong assumption about Dak not being able to succeed in the WCO because of his accuracy when McNabb who was more inaccurate had success.

i don't believe i said he wouldn't succeed. I am saying accuracy is not his thing, especially throwing short slants and crossing routes.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 10, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
The horizontal aspect is bad for Dak. He doesn't see the coverage players are running into very well. That's where INTs come from. More outs and swing passes. And early ins for the wideouts. That has been missing from Gallup in particular. He gets singled, so they back off a little on him. Quick ins could cash in on that.

I don't think any particular system is the way to go in the NFL anymore. Take some of each, matching your players and the matchups of the opponent.

I'm just looking at what I see from Dak and what the Offense calls for. Gotta have great mechanics and especially footwork in that Offense. Not as precise as a Turner Timing Offense like we ran in the early 90s but still, it's 3 and 5 and the ball comes out. It's being able to move through your reads quickly and identifying presnap. It's throwing the ball accurately into windows because this Offense is about YAC. Dak doesn't do that well. Can McCarthy and this staff help him improve there? Perhaps but he's always had issues with this part of his game. Guess we'll see.

buybuydandavis · Jan 10, 2020

ABQCOWBOY said:
I'm just looking at what I see from Dak and what the Offense calls for. Gotta have great mechanics and especially footwork in that Offense. Not as precise as a Turner Timing Offense like we ran in the early 90s but still, it's 3 and 5 and the ball comes out. It's being able to move through your reads quickly and identifying presnap. It's throwing the ball accurately into windows because this Offense is about YAC. Dak doesn't do that well. Can McCarthy and this staff help him improve there? Perhaps but he's always had issues with this part of his game. Guess we'll see.

When you have legitimate deep threats *and* a legitimate power runner and oline, the defense has to back off some relative to a pure WC offense, making the quick passes easier.

Quick hitting throws to receivers *on the move* have been missing in our offense. I hope we add some, but removing the other things we do well doesn't make sense.

StarOfGlory · Jan 11, 2020

Risen Star said:
Does a west coast offense require talent from it's QB? Asking for a friend.

You don't have to be a super accurate passer in the WCO if you have RB's who can get out and catch the ball. Neither McNabb or Vick were accurate passers in the short game. However, both could extend plays with their legs and both could easily flick the ball 60+ yards downfield. Remember the game when McNabb scrambled around for 14 seconds? When McNabb threw that ball, he was on the run and had to throw that ball across his body. He never planted his foot (I just watched the video, I was sick all over again). He threw it from is own 23 and it was caught on our 23. Opportunities like that are inevitably are there for the taking, since defenses can scheme to shut down the short game. Can Dak take them?

The thing is, when not in the shotgun, can Dak effectively run a WCO scheme? Dak would have to become proficient in both 3-step and 5-step drops. The 3-step means get the ball out fast. With the 5-step, there are two basic techniques to learn. One is to take your drop and be set at the end of the drop to release the ball. The other is to make the last step a hitch step forward (step into the pocket), being planted at the hitch and releasing the ball to the proper spot with accuracy. If Dak cannot do that, then he will almost always be running the scheme from the shotgun. This puts a bit more pressure on the o-line, since the rushing linemen already know where the QB is.

Dak can move, we know that. But for an effective WCO, we should have a Westbrook-type who can really catch the ball out of the backfield for at least some downs. We also would need a TE like Kelce/Kittle/Ertz who can catch the ball. If Dak doesn't have the right offensive personnel for the WCO, it simply won't work. Reid's best chance came when he had T.O., since everything opened up for his with that threat. Can Cooper be that threat? Are Zeke and Pollard good enough receivers out of the backfield? Westbrook was a much better route runner then either of our backs. Receivers running the shallow crossing routes must be at the right place at the right time. And, of course, the ball has to be there for them. Can Dak hit them? We already have the running component in Zeke.

If QB's like McNabb and Vick could do it, I believe Dak could too. But the team needs the right personnel around him. There are examples of teams who try WCO-type schemes without the right personnel, and they have failed. I don't want us to fail.

brdawk20forever · Jan 11, 2020

StarOfGlory said:
You don't have to be a super accurate passer in the WCO if you have RB's who can get out and catch the ball. Neither McNabb or Vick were accurate passers in the short game. However, both could extend plays with their legs and both could easily flick the ball 60+ yards downfield. Remember the game when McNabb scrambled around for 14 seconds? When McNabb threw that ball, he was on the run and had to throw that ball across his body. He never planted his foot (I just watched the video, I was sick all over again). He threw it from is own 23 and it was caught on our 23. Opportunities like that are inevitably are there for the taking, since defenses can scheme to shut down the short game. Can Dak take them?

The thing is, when not in the shotgun, can Dak effectively run a WCO scheme? Dak would have to become proficient in both 3-step and 5-step drops. The 3-step means get the ball out fast. With the 5-step, there are two basic techniques to learn. One is to take your drop and be set at the end of the drop to release the ball. The other is to make the last step a hitch step forward (step into the pocket), being planted at the hitch and releasing the ball to the proper spot with accuracy. If Dak cannot do that, then he will almost always be running the scheme from the shotgun. This puts a bit more pressure on the o-line, since the rushing linemen already know where the QB is.

Dak can move, we know that. But for an effective WCO, we should have a Westbrook-type who can really catch the ball out of the backfield for at least some downs. We also would need a TE like Kelce/Kittle/Ertz who can catch the ball. If Dak doesn't have the right offensive personnel for the WCO, it simply won't work. Reid's best chance came when he had T.O., since everything opened up for his with that threat. Can Cooper be that threat? Are Zeke and Pollard good enough receivers out of the backfield? Westbrook was a much better route runner then either of our backs. Receivers running the shallow crossing routes must be at the right place at the right time. And, of course, the ball has to be there for them. Can Dak hit them? We already have the running component in Zeke.

If QB's like McNabb and Vick could do it, I believe Dak could too. But the team needs the right personnel around him. There are examples of teams who try WCO-type schemes without the right personnel, and they have failed. I don't want us to fail.

As an Eagle fan, you are right on point. Your line is better than anything McNabb had, but the Eagles did have at least a good line. Dak can’t deep like McNabb or Vick, but he has Elliot, something the Eagles never had.

Flamma · Jan 11, 2020

Doomsday101 said:
I saw the interview with McCarthy and King where he talked about RPO plays and I could see McCarthy implementing RPO plays within his offense

I'm hoping he doesn't. I hate that RPO. Dak never runs it, and Zeke can't get a full head of steam and usually gets dropped right away.

ABQCOWBOY · Jan 11, 2020

buybuydandavis said:
When you have legitimate deep threats *and* a legitimate power runner and oline, the defense has to back off some relative to a pure WC offense, making the quick passes easier.

Quick hitting throws to receivers *on the move* have been missing in our offense. I hope we add some, but removing the other things we do well doesn't make sense.

They have been but I suspect that the reason for that is driven more by Dak's accuracy on those routes. They are some of the easiest and most effective routes you can throw if run properly and thrown properly, yet as you say, we hardly ever used them.

We will see what happens I suppose.

West Coast Offense?

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