The Elite QB Farce

Proof · Jan 14, 2020

mattjames2010 said:
Eli Manning was a 2x Super Bowl MVP and a first round talent. He made 2 throws that are iconic in the Super Bowl, and also played his best against highly ranked defenses in 2007 to get to a Super Bowl. He's also borderline HOF. Peyton Manning may not have had the arm strength anymore, but his intellect didn't go away. You think they would have won with freakin' Brock? Downplaying the Manning's is LOL worthy.

And I already mentioned what Foles and Flacco had to do - Flacco benefited from a great defense and had one of the best post-season runs as a QB (go look at his numbers) and Foles is a cinderella story.

I’m not sure if you’re joking or not. You said it yourself, Eli is a borderline hall of faker with 2 superbowl mvp’s lol. he’s just not a great qb by any stretch. Football is weird like that, he got hot at the right time.

as far as Peyton is concerned lol he’s an all time great. One of my favorites ever and he flat out stunk in the playoffs and was escorted to the title by the defense. He had like 500 yards combined through 3 games with a paltry 141 and no tds in the SB. you’re better than this. Do I think Brock Could have done the same? Probably especially since he managed to get them to the playoffs in Peytons absence, by... riding the defense.

And sure, Flacco and Foles has to provide Herculean efforts, but that’s kinda the point. They did, they won, we’ve seen it. It happens.

thunderpimp91 · Jan 14, 2020

CATCH17 said:
Overpaying the QB position hurts more then anything IMO.

This is the true issue that gets ignored and gets most dak critics mislabeled as haters.

You can 100% win a championship with dak Prescott as your qb, I have zero doubts about that. The issue is building and keeping that surrounding cast around him when you have 35-40MM locked up on one player that is good but not elite.

The Seahawks are a great example. Competitive every year because they have a really good qb, but have seemed to really miss that extra piece or two to put then over the top after Russell got paid. My fear is that is the cowboys ceiling with paying dak market value.

keysersoze · Jan 14, 2020

mattjames2010 said:
LOL you mean like the defense that gave up 46 against the Saints, 31 against LA, 26 and 25 against Arizona, and 29 against the Falcons? Oh, he won every single one of those except the Falcons game, by the way.

49ers defense got hit with injuries down the stretch and weren't playing great football. Jimmy G still won.

You can attribute that to great coaching. Adjustments are essential. We haven’t had that in years. Jimmy G is a turnover machine. Like I said. Niner fans even know Dak is better. Hopefully the coaching change will show it.

Irvin88_4life · Jan 14, 2020

Some of you guys flip flop so much it's funny. Y'all use to complain that Dak didn't have stats and he was just a bus driver. Y'all said you just wanted a QB to throw 4000 plus yards and 30 TDs but when Dak had almost 5000 yards and 30 TDs now y'all want a bus driver. Can y'all admit you don't have a clue what you want because you just dislike Dak and no matter what he does y'all will want the opposite.

You can't have a dominate run game and clock eating offense but then also want a 5000 yard 30 plus TD QB at the same time. Fantasy football has made you guys silly

mattjames2010 · Jan 14, 2020

Proof said:
I’m not sure if you’re joking or not. You said it yourself, Eli is a borderline hall of faker with 2 superbowl mvp’s lol. he’s just not a great qb by any stretch. Football is weird like that, he got hot at the right time.

as far as Peyton is concerned lol he’s an all time great. One of my favorites ever and he flat out stunk in the playoffs and was escorted to the title by the defense. He had like 500 yards combined through 3 games with a paltry 141 and no tds in the SB. you’re better than this. Do I think Brock Could have done the same? Probably especially since he managed to get them to the playoffs in Peytons absence, by... riding the defense.

And sure, Flacco and Foles has to provide Herculean efforts, but that’s kinda the point. They did, they won, we’ve seen it. It happens.

Yes, he's borderline HOF. Dak will not be at the end of his career. Eli Manning will be in the Super Bowl because he played at a level to win Super Bowls and he played his best in those moments. He was taken in the first round for a reason.

I don't think Peyton was GREAT in 2015, but he made the throws that needed to be made because he still had elite football IQ and reading the field. Dak struggles with going through his progressions still.

But as I mentioned, good luck paying Dak elite money and getting him an elite defense and for Dak to have a stretch of games late that he plays as well or better than Flacco and Foles did in the playoffs.

Proof · Jan 14, 2020

mattjames2010 said:
Yes, he's borderline HOF. Dak will not be at the end of his career. Eli Manning will be in the Super Bowl because he played at a level to win Super Bowls and he played his best in those moments. He was taken in the first round for a reason.

I don't think Peyton was GREAT in 2015, but he made the throws that needed to be made because he still had elite football IQ and reading the field. Dak struggles with going through his progressions still.

But as I mentioned, good luck paying Dak elite money and getting him an elite defense and for Dak to have a stretch of games late that he plays as well or better than Flacco and Foles did in the playoffs.

I know your overall point about Dak, and don’t necessarily disagree (although I think he’s plenty capable of winning a sb) I disagree with your choice of argument and all of the associated holes in it.

blueblood70 · Jan 14, 2020

Irvin88_4life said:
Some of you guys flip flop so much it's funny. Y'all use to complain that Dak didn't have stats and he was just a bus driver. Y'all said you just wanted a QB to throw 4000 plus yards and 30 TDs but when Dak had almost 5000 yards and 30 TDs now y'all want a bus driver. Can y'all admit you don't have a clue what you want because you just dislike Dak and no matter what he does y'all will want the opposite.

You can't have a dominate run game and clock eating offense but then also want a 5000 yard 30 plus TD QB at the same time. Fantasy football has made you guys silly

no we want constancy he put up a ton of those yards in the weaker teams games, we want him to have those kind of numbers against the better team and especially down the stretch in the biggest games.. he regressed the last 6 games.. theres no denying that..

we like to see his best games in the big ones..

Diehardblues · Jan 14, 2020

Having an Elite QB makes it easier in Cap era because you’re going to have to pay your QB anyway. And the less Elite your QB is the less you can afford to surround him.

The teams in Cap era who most often are contenders are the ones with Elite QB’s. It’s not a certainty to win championships as there are other contributing factors but is easier to stay on top as a consistent contender.

LocimusPrime · Jan 14, 2020

Diehardblues said:
Having an Elite QB makes it easier in Cap era because you’re going to have to pay your QB anyway. And the lesser your QB is the less you can afford to surround him.

The teams in Cap era who most often are contenders are the ones with Elite QB’s. It’s not a certainty to win championships as there are other contributing factors but is easier to stay on top as a consistent contender.

This is a very logical and reasonable post

johneric8 · Jan 14, 2020

CouchCoach said:
I've seen so much of that here. "Got to have an elite QB" and "can't get it done without that elite QB".

The only thing I agree with is that the Cowboys do not have an elite QB and he probably won't ever be considered that.

Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson, Watson all have been mentioned with as that old guard elite or the new guard. Mahomes is in that group and along with Rodgers, the only ones left in the playoffs and is Rodgers there because he's played elite this season or is it the RB and DE's? And the fact that Brees, Rodgers and Wilson only have one ring doesn't seem to matter.

Did you catch Brees, Jackson, Wilson and Watson trying to lift their teams? Or did you catch Tannehill in his last two playoff games with <200 yards? Which is it better to have? The QB to lift the team or the team to support the QB? Ask Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson and Watson.

This is not about Prescott, it is about every team has to build around the QB and Brees, Rodgers and Wilson are proof. Elway was elite and he wouldn't have any rings if not for a HC and RB and an offensive philosophical change..

Roger and Troy had to have teams around them, same with Starr, Bradshaw, Montana and Brady wasn't that bad this season, the team around him wasn't the usual standard.

It's one thing we've seen, different kinds of teams can do it different ways, there isn't just one template. Get that elite QB and ride the wave. This isn't baseball when they can ride a pitcher or two.

I do not think if the Cowboys had any of those elite QB's this season, it would have been much different.

Finally an educate rant.. I made a post about this the other day... Trent Dilfer, Eli Manning, Mark Rypien, Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, Jim Plunkett, Brad Johnson, Doug Williams, ETC, ALL SAID HELLO!!!!! Yep, they won super bowls and most are nearly as well rounded as Dak from top to bottom!

Thanks for making a reasonable post finally because they're hard to come by on this forum.

GMO415 · Jan 14, 2020

Some teams just don't have a lot of talent, but they have an elite QB. It works in those circumstances, but its not sustainable.

BoysForLife · Jan 14, 2020

CouchCoach said:
I've seen so much of that here. "Got to have an elite QB" and "can't get it done without that elite QB".

The only thing I agree with is that the Cowboys do not have an elite QB and he probably won't ever be considered that.

Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson, Watson all have been mentioned with as that old guard elite or the new guard. Mahomes is in that group and along with Rodgers, the only ones left in the playoffs and is Rodgers there because he's played elite this season or is it the RB and DE's? And the fact that Brees, Rodgers and Wilson only have one ring doesn't seem to matter.

Did you catch Brees, Jackson, Wilson and Watson trying to lift their teams? Or did you catch Tannehill in his last two playoff games with <200 yards? Which is it better to have? The QB to lift the team or the team to support the QB? Ask Brady, Brees, Wilson, Jackson and Watson.

This is not about Prescott, it is about every team has to build around the QB and Brees, Rodgers and Wilson are proof. Elway was elite and he wouldn't have any rings if not for a HC and RB and an offensive philosophical change..

Roger and Troy had to have teams around them, same with Starr, Bradshaw, Montana and Brady wasn't that bad this season, the team around him wasn't the usual standard.

It's one thing we've seen, different kinds of teams can do it different ways, there isn't just one template. Get that elite QB and ride the wave. This isn't baseball when they can ride a pitcher or two.

I do not think if the Cowboys had any of those elite QB's this season, it would have been much different.

I think there is some validity to what you say, in that it still takes a team and that one man, by himself, does not win Super Bowls. You are spot on with that assessment and on point.

here's where we part company, is on your closing sentence.
There's a lot of talent on this Cowboys team.
you put Patrick Mahomes on this Cowboys team instead of Dak, and there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind we win the NFC East. would have been 11-5 minimum, maybe 12-4. I look at the NO and the NE games for instance, and there's zero doubt we score at least 14 points in both of those games to get 2 more wins. I think Buffalo might have played out differently as well and possibly Chicago. For sure the 2nd Philly game.

The offense was despicably bad in the NO, NE, and 2nd Philly game and not much better in the Buffalo and Chicago games. We'd have won minimum 3 of those games, maybe 4, imo with for example a Mahomes under center rather than Dak, imo.

But you are correct--we still need a team. If we had Mahomes and very little if any quality receiving corp, etc, or no O lineman, or no solid run game, we'd probably be 8-8 again.

Diehardblues · Jan 14, 2020

Teams with Elite QB’s like Patriots, Packers, Saints , Seahawks, etc are consistently contending often with less supporting cast. Teams with new Elite QB’s like Mahomes will be the new consistent contender.

Again, it doesn’t always end in championships but they usually remain on top not needing as much supporting cast.

There’s a reason teams mortage their drafts and future to obtain the next Elite QB because it’s the soundest means to build a contender that can stay on top throughout their career.

The only exception we’ve seen is with generational defenses that usually can’t be held together long as Cap rips them apart eventually.

BoysForLife · Jan 14, 2020

johneric8 said:
Finally an educate rant.. I made a post about this the other day... Trent Dilfer, Eli Manning, Mark Rypien, Nick Foles, Joe Flacco, Jim McMahon, Jeff Hostetler, Jim Plunkett, Brad Johnson, Doug Williams, ETC, ALL SAID HELLO!!!!! Yep, they won super bowls and most are nearly as well rounded as Dak from top to bottom!

Thanks for making a reasonable post finally because they're hard to come by on this forum.

Were any of those guys burning about 25-28% of their team's salary cap on their own?

The were bus drivers, who were paid like bus drivers, which allowed the FO to build a dominant team around them.

There's your difference, between them and Dak. He's demanding to be paid like he's Mahomes.
He ain't Mahomes.

BoysForLife · Jan 14, 2020

Diehardblues said:
The only exception we’ve seen is with generational defenses that usually can’t be held together long as Cap rips them apart eventually.

Exactly right because when the team wins a super Bowl, they pay their QB instead of their generational defense and then they can't keep the defenders around LOL

Diehardblues · Jan 14, 2020

BoysForLife said:
I think there is some validity to what you say, in that it still takes a team and that one man, by himself, does not win Super Bowls. You are spot on with that assessment and on point.

here's where we part company, is on your closing sentence.
There's a lot of talent on this Cowboys team.
you put Patrick Mahomes on this Cowboys team instead of Dak, and there is absolutely zero doubt in my mind we win the NFC East. would have been 11-5 minimum, maybe 12-4. I look at the NO and the NE games for instance, and there's zero doubt we score at least 14 points in both of those games to get 2 more wins. I think Buffalo might have played out differently as well and possibly Chicago. For sure the 2nd Philly game.

The offense was despicably bad in the NO, NE, and 2nd Philly game and not much better in the Buffalo and Chicago games. We'd have won minimum 3 of those games, maybe 4, imo with for example a Mahomes under center rather than Dak, imo.

But you are correct--we still need a team. If we had Mahomes and very little if any quality receiving corp, etc, or no O lineman, or no solid run game, we'd probably be 8-8 again.

Who’s saying an Elite QB is all you need. It just makes it easier to surround and stay in contention.

I dint think it’s a coincidence the teams with the best QB’s are more often in contention.

Diehardblues · Jan 14, 2020

BoysForLife said:
Exactly right because when the team wins a super Bowl, they pay their QB instead of their generational defense and then they can't keep the defenders around LOL

The Cap has changed how teams are built and managed.

You have to pay your QB. It’s not like you can pay an average QB significantly lower than an Elite QB. There in lies a bigger issue.

The only time you can save money on a QB is Rookie contract. That’s the best window to win a championship with less than an Elite QB.

Blue&Silver · Jan 14, 2020

Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly were pretty elite in their time, but neither won a Super Bowl.

keysersoze · Jan 14, 2020

Can someone please give me their definition of AN ELITE QUARTERBACK? Just for reference.

keysersoze · Jan 14, 2020

Blue&Silver said:
Dan Marino, and Jim Kelly were pretty elite in their time, but neither won a Super Bowl.

And Elway was the most Elite of that era. And he failed to win until he had Terrell Davis and a stout defense. Go figure.

The Elite QB Farce

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