The Elite QB Farce

Diehardblues said:

Don’t ask me. Ask sportswriters who vote in HOFamers.

If we can’t definite Elite and Greatness with HOF then any definition is baseless. A new low for this forum.

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I think you and the couple of folks you’re arguing with are asking/responding to different questions

being in the HOF is recognition of achievement and greatness or “elite” status but it comes after the fact

I think what they are pestering you for is for you to share your opinion on the actual skills, abilities and traits that make a QB elite. Even defining moments when a QB puts the team on his back might qualify. I think they want for you to define, in your opinion, which I’d those aspects of QB play are elite.

Now, I haven’t seen them define elite in this thread either, so there ya have it

Anyway, I think assigning the definition of the term (elite) to an accolade placed upon them (HOF).
It’s a fine line and neither side is “wrong” I just think you’re all coming at it for a different perspective.

Does that make any sense?

By the way, for anyone posting here, insults are childish and detract from the credibility of your arguments

kskboys said:

Not 4.

Only a few, and they were obviously just OK QB's. The only multiple Super bowl winner not in is Plunkett, and he was not great.

IDK, Greg, if they start putting guys like Eli in, then that would go to show you that all of them are not great. Eli was not even close to great/elite.

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Eli stunk over his later years and isn’t deserving of the hall

but I am trying t remember because it’s been so long but I seem to remember Eli putting on a show during those runs

he was aided by a great defense and a few miracle catches but he played very well leading up to their SBs

and he regularly made beyatches of the cowboys in their house not saying he deserves the hall and it’s fun to make fun of him but he did have a decent run

Streetwise said:

Correction - 141 INTs

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Your argument is stupid because you're stupid.

The arguments here would probably only ever have Dan Marino as being elite LOL

starfan1 said:

Eli stunk over his later years and isn’t deserving of the hall

but I am trying t remember because it’s been so long but I seem to remember Eli putting on a show during those runs

he was aided by a great defense and a few miracle catches but he played very well leading up to their SBs

and he regularly made beyatches of the cowboys in their house not saying he deserves the hall and it’s fun to make fun of him but he did have a decent run

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Yes, he is. Manning may have been inconsistent over his career, but he went up against some great teams in the 07 and 11 playoffs and simply played at another level. His throw to Manningham alone gets him in. Reminder



Very few QBs can make this throw.

CouchCoach said:

Witten will get in because of his stats, second only to Gonzalez, and his durability to play this long. I do not consider him an elite TE. I would take Novacek over him all day long and he's not in the HOF.

The media making these players household names and gushing about them in games has as much to do with getting into the HOF. The awareness factor does play well into it.

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Fair point.

mattjames2010 said:

Your argument is stupid because you're stupid.

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Internet tough guys are sad.

Irvin88_4life said:

What other Dallas QB won championships that didn't get in?

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I wasn't referring to other Cowboy QB’s.

Yah, you have credibility because Dak is consistently accurate and never throws balls high or behind or in the dirt. He always hits receivers right in stride...lol....I guess the receivers are reaching above and behind them to increase the degree of difficulty. Uh, huh, Mr. Credibility.

Streetwise said:

The above takes away any credibility you may have had.[

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Streetwise said:

The above takes away any credibility you may have had.

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MaineBoy said:

Yah, you have credibility because Dak is consistently accurate and never throws balls high or behind or in the dirt. He always hits receivers right in stride...lol....I guess the receivers are reaching above and behind them to increase the degree of difficulty. Uh, huh, Mr. Credibility.

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You have derailed.

Diehardblues said:

I wasn't referring to other Cowboy QB’s.

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You said "we've" had other QBs........ are you not a cowboys fan.

My fault if I misunderstood by the way

CouchCoach said:

Witten will get in because of his stats, second only to Gonzalez, and his durability to play this long. I do not consider him an elite TE. I would take Novacek over him all day long and he's not in the HOF.

The media making these players household names and gushing about them in games has as much to do with getting into the HOF. The awareness factor does play well into it.

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I don’t know about that. Not saying you’re wrong but for me it’s a much closer comparison

if the only criteria is big downfield plays, then yeah, Novacek all day, but Witten was light years ahead of Novacek when it came to blocking and that’s still an important part of being a successful tight end, even in the current era.

In fact, in Novacek’s era, his lack of blocking ability was a much bigger detriment than it would be now when the passing game has evolved to where many TE’s are just slightly bigger wide receivers and many of them can’t block to save their lives (or the lives of their QB or RB)

Finally, durability, consistency and durability count for something and Witten had those in spades for almost his entire career.

I find it a fun mind game to imagine Novacek on the Romo teams and Witten with Troy. I think both would have been even better!

MaineBoy said:

Yah, you have credibility because Dak is consistently accurate and never throws balls high or behind or in the dirt. He always hits receivers right in stride...lol....I guess the receivers are reaching above and behind them to increase the degree of difficulty. Uh, huh, Mr. Credibility.

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Nobody has said Dak doesn't miss on some throws, every QB in the history of the game missed throws every game. It's your comment that that he always throws bad passes is the issue. Way to go overboard though

Irvin88_4life said:

You said "we've" had other QBs........ are you not a cowboys fan.

My fault if I misunderstood by the way

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Yeah, I think he was referring to we being NFL fans, not specifically Cowboy fans

kskboys said:

I think it's not a black/white proposition.

If they put Eli in, then elite goes out the window.

Not as high as people are claiming. He was terrible vs SF in the 11 run, but his D and Kyle Williams' fumbling bailed him out over and over and over.

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When it comes to the HOF it has to be black and white. It’s the pinnacle of achievement and defines best of the best of an era.

We all can agree there are marginal inductees. His career stats stack up. Longevity and Impact matter as well and why those Rings matter. But without his Rings it wouldn’t be enough on its own neither would his career stats.

Kwyn said:

Neither the Rams not the Eagles were going to take our #4 overall for #1 or #2 because both teams desperately needed a QB. I suppose we could have given them the #4 overall (Zeke) and our 2017 1st to move up to #2 for Wentz (I use Jimmy’s draft value calculator which is the standard) but since the Eagles were desperate and already in love with Wentz it probably would have taken more.

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We were never in contention with the Eagles for the #2 pick. The Eagles traded up from #8 with the Browns and I'd be willing to bet that the Browns would have rather traded from the 2 spot to 4. When the Eagles traded up, we lost out on any "potential" franchise QB.

You make you argument around the false premise that we'd have to trade with the Eagles for Wentz and thus, we'd never have a shot because the Eagles were hungry for a QB. In reality, we could have traded with the Browns but we thought that Wentz would fall to #4 and he probably would have. The Chargers had Rivers and Cleveland drafted Manziel two years prior. We played it all wrong and let another QB hungry team move ahead of us because of a guy who thinks he's a GM but has no idea how to build a team. Meanwhile, the Eagles completely revamped their roster from the Chip Kelly fiasco in two years and win the SB.

Kwyn said:

Yeah, I think he was referring to we being NFL fans, not specifically Cowboy fans

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Makes sense, thanks for clarifying

Streetwise said:

Internet tough guys are sad.

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LOL oh, so after you call someone a "dummy" earlier, now you getting hit right back with it...makes me an "internet tough guy"?

Your takes always end up being wrong. Remember when you said Russell Wilson isn't elite?

Elite to me is to play above the team level, elevate the team. There aren't many that can do that and I don't think Aikman did that, Staubach did. Aikman was a textbook passer when it came to mechanics but look at his game as the team around him began to unravel.

There aren't many QB's in the NFL today that I would put in that Elite category but there are some on the cusp. There is one elite one left in the playoffs as Rodgers was not elite this season but he wasn't forced to be because of the run game and fixing their D, which is the point of this thread.

Even the ones that are considered elite like Brees and Manning didn't play at that level to get their rings, their D's bailed them out. And please don't bring up that SB MVP crap because that went south when they gave that to Eli when it should have gone to his DL.

We don't have to look far for an example of what my point is. LaFleur took the GB job and assessed the problem. His predecessor had relied on the elite QB too much and he would focus more on a very good run game and bring in the Smith's. Belichick has never relied on his elite QB but this year took two huge risks in getting him weapons. But that Belichick D is more responsible for those 6 rings than their elite QB. Russell Wilson was in the running for MVP until he lost his run game and many consider him elite.

The beauty of this HC is that he's learned his lesson about leaning on the QB and this one isn't elite, so he can't. He needs this QB to manage and run his offense and employ the weapons around him. He also realizes he's not taking over the Giants or Skins where 8-8 is moving up. Big Mike knows the expectations for him this season are going to be the most talked about and evaluated of all the HC's. Did any talking head not say this team is too talented to have ended up where they did, which was echoed by the owner/GM. The Giants and Skins new HC's pulled Buttercup and Sweet Sue to ride in this rodeo and Big Mike got El Diablo and he knows he doesn't have that elite QB to make that ride easier.

mattjames2010 said:

LOL oh, so after you call someone a "dummy" earlier, now you getting hit right back with it...makes me an "internet tough guy"?

Your takes always end up being wrong. Remember when you said Russell Wilson isn't elite?

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I was being silly, you're a dick. There's a difference. Hit right back? Lmao. Poor little fella.

Dodger12 said:

We were never in contention with the Eagles for the #2 pick. The Eagles traded up from #8 with the Browns and I'd be willing to bet that the Browns would have rather traded from the 2 spot to 4. When the Eagles traded up, we lost out on any "potential" franchise QB.

You make you argument around the false premise that we'd have to trade with the Eagles for Wentz and thus, we'd never have a shot because the Eagles were hungry for a QB. In reality, we could have traded with the Browns but we thought that Wentz would fall to #4 and he probably would have. The Chargers had Rivers and Cleveland drafted Manziel two years prior. We played it all wrong and let another QB hungry team move ahead of us because of a guy who thinks he's a GM but has no idea how to build a team. Meanwhile, the Eagles completely revamped their roster from the Chip Kelly fiasco in two years and win the SB.

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Good points on the Browns. That was a miss by me

Eagles gave up a future 1st, a 2nd, a 3rd and a 4th to move up switch places and got a 5th round pick thrown in

I’m not sure we could have, or should have, offered anything that would have been more attractive to the Browns than that jackpot