Problem I have with Dak and our Offense

morat1959

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On this forum, yes.

In the general Cowboys fanbase and populace, I'm not so sure.

this is purely anecdotal but I ran into an old friend the other day that's a big Cowboys fan and I haven't seen him for a few years.
It was right after MM got hired. So we had a 10-15 minute chat about the state of the team, etc.

He was originally a big Dak Backer. To the point that we had a pretty pointed debate (very friendly, but very adversarial) about who should be the starter in 2016 once Tony was healthy.

So I expected him to be still big time on the Dak train. Suffice it to say, he wasn't. His comments echoed many of our concerns (bad on reads, late on throws, accuracy issues, etc). He said he likes Dak at $2 million. PRetty much hates him as our QB at $35+ million.

I think there are many out there who see Dak for who he is, and also a good many who see him for who they hope he can be.

Problem is, there's only one vote that actually counts. And Jerry seems to be in love with him. so I fear we're probably in trouble. But we're certainly not an insignificant minority within the fanbase. Not by a long shot.
I’m a born, raised and breed MS boy. I was in Dak’s corner when we drafted him. I was at the top of the list in wanting him to succeed despite having watched him play for many years before he got here and knowing what I’d seen going back to his highschool days. I was hoping he could overcome his limitations as a QB and excel in the NFL. He was a very good QB working within Dan Mullen’s system at MS St. I knew that style of play would never be successful in the NFL. After 4 years, he still has all the problems you mentioned in the above post. He’s hard nosed, tough as a lightered knot, straight up company man and knows what to say in front of the camera. At least in my mind, we need way more than that at the QB position on this team.

All this being said, for the first time in a long time, I’m optimistic about the upcoming season. For nothing else other than (it appears) JJ has loosened his reign some. Letting MM hire his own staff is a step in the right direction. Been a fan since I was 6 years old.....55 years running! GO BOYS!
 

quickccc

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First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

Jimmy Grappolo is not an elite QB either, but yet he’s a part of the one of the more richer QB contracts in NFL history, but for what his skill set and makeup is, he fits the scheme and system
that he is leading under Shanahan. And now he is leading his team in competiting for the Super bowl after being among the worst teams in NFL only a very short time ago.
While our decades of SB drought ever continue.

Imo, the leading key is Niners are just a far more better and superior coaching staff, far better schemed and discipline, far assure of themselves and how to operate, than what
we have shown for years under Garrett.

They have a successful management team.
They have an identity, while we are still trying to figure out what we want to be, ..what and how we want to lead with,.. how do we properly use and utilize what we got, ..you do have to have
Idea talent in player-personnel field first, but there’s no question that it starts with the coaching.

The better coaches place a system where they can get the best out of players. They know how to utilize what they do best,.. and limit or hide what they do the least.
They manage the situations and they know how to make adjustments.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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This Dak can’t win against good teams thing was literally manufactured this year lol. Never mentioned once in previous seasons. It’s the new “he can’t throw for 300” and “he can’t throw deep”

Smh can’t wait for next year

This is not really true. This discussion was being had previous to this season as well. It was just given more focus this year because of the contract discussion IMO.
 

romonumberone

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I am the biggest Romo fan there is. But if Romo signed a $40,000,000 a year deal with the Cowboys I would be very unhappy. Even more unhappy if Dallas was kissing his butt and offering him a very generous contract and he comes back and says they insulted him.

All these conversations on this forum are not about Dak being an average QB. He is. There is no problem with that. It is 100% about Dak being an average QB and making him the highest paid player in NFL HISTORY.

Can an average QB win a SB? Yes.... If you have massive talent EVERYWHERE else. Dallas does not even have that talent with Dak getting paid $2,000,000 a year. They certainly will not acquire it with Dak getting paid $40,000,000 a year. Compounded by some other poor contracts having been dished out Jaylon, Zeke, and Lawrence. Further compounded by swing and misses in the draft such as Hill & Charlton.

I do not need to be a cap expert to know that you cannot have the highest paid in the league at every position and still have money left over for the depth that NFL football requires.... We are already too much of a top heavy team.

There is at least 15-20 QB's in this league that could step in with all the talent we have on Offense and play better. Dak's stats are pretty.... I can say that about almost every QB in the league now. What I do see is a team that had way too much talent to go 9-7, 10-6, 8-8 the last 3 years.

I have seen posts saying it is not fair to count Dak's stats or performance until Amari showed up..... to justify Dak being a great QB. Well if Amari is the engine that makes this go. Than pay Amari and not Dak.

I will throw my prediction in the ring that Dak gets 5 years 177 million.
 

HungryLion

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I am the biggest Romo fan there is. But if Romo signed a $40,000,000 a year deal with the Cowboys I would be very unhappy. Even more unhappy if Dallas was kissing his butt and offering him a very generous contract and he comes back and says they insulted him.

All these conversations on this forum are not about Dak being an average QB. He is. There is no problem with that. It is 100% about Dak being an average QB and making him the highest paid player in NFL HISTORY.

Can an average QB win a SB? Yes.... If you have massive talent EVERYWHERE else. Dallas does not even have that talent with Dak getting paid $2,000,000 a year. They certainly will not acquire it with Dak getting paid $40,000,000 a year. Compounded by some other poor contracts having been dished out Jaylon, Zeke, and Lawrence. Further compounded by swing and misses in the draft such as Hill & Charlton.

I do not need to be a cap expert to know that you cannot have the highest paid in the league at every position and still have money left over for the depth that NFL football requires.... We are already too much of a top heavy team.

There is at least 15-20 QB's in this league that could step in with all the talent we have on Offense and play better. Dak's stats are pretty.... I can say that about almost every QB in the league now. What I do see is a team that had way too much talent to go 9-7, 10-6, 8-8 the last 3 years.

I have seen posts saying it is not fair to count Dak's stats or performance until Amari showed up..... to justify Dak being a great QB. Well if Amari is the engine that makes this go. Than pay Amari and not Dak.

I will throw my prediction in the ring that Dak gets 5 years 177 million.



:facepalm:
 

817Gill

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This is not really true. This discussion was being had previous to this season as well. It was just given more focus this year because of the contract discussion IMO.
Nah cause the team has had winning records versus winning teams in 2016/2018, with 2017 being a year you kinda throw out cause of all the crap circumstances that no player in history would have overcame.

In 2016 it was how much did he contribute, in 2018 we had no real questions about being able to beat winning teams at all.

Also Dak is given very little credit when the team wins, but when we lose people have no issue saying Dak can’t win big games. You don’t beat good teams by having the second to worse special teams unit and the second to worse turnover unit on D. That’s the difference.
 

ABQCOWBOY

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Nah cause the team has had winning records versus winning teams in 2016/2018, with 2017 being a year you kinda throw out cause of all the crap circumstances that no player in history would have overcame.

In 2016 it was how much did he contribute, in 2018 we had no real questions about being able to beat winning teams at all.

Also Dak is given very little credit when the team wins, but when we lose people have no issue saying Dak can’t win big games. You don’t beat good teams by having the second to worse special teams unit and the second to worse turnover unit on D. That’s the difference.

OK, can you please post those records against Ranked Defensive teams in 2016 and 2018? I remember having those discussions on this board.
 

percyhoward

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The problem, at least to me, is that the rankings really don't take into account, strongly enough, the strength of schedule.
They don't all give the same weight to strength of schedule, which is probably one reason Dallas ranks 2nd according to one and 4th according to another. But they're always tweaking their adjustments, so there's no reason to think they'd be so far off that it would make Dallas anything but one of the league's top offenses.
 

big dog cowboy

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Brax

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Not angry at all bro. Just stating a fact. When Romo got those 2 big contracts, hardly any of the anti-Dakers were upset. Now that Dak is up to get his first big contract, those Romo supporters are up in arms. We all can see what is going on and why.
Whats going on and why?????? What are you saying, or is this code for something?????
 

ABQCOWBOY

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They don't all give the same weight to strength of schedule, which is probably one reason Dallas ranks 2nd according to one and 4th according to another. But they're always tweaking their adjustments, so there's no reason to think they'd be so far off that it would make Dallas anything but one of the league's top offenses.

Who said that the Cowboys didn't have one of the top Offenses? I mean, statistically, they absolutely did but in terms of how they performed against Top Ranked Defenses, they clearly did not get it done well enough to win games. I mean, that's the entire crux of the conversation. It's all well and good to throw down 500 yards against a poor defensive team and hang 46 up but if you can't score more then 9 points against New England, 10 points against the Saints, 15 against the Bills, 9 against the Eagles, it doesn't really mean anything that you are ranked as a top 10 Offense. You gotta beat teams with good defenses or you might as well be playing Flag Football.

Take a look at the top 10 Offensive ranked teams. Of the Top 10, I think only something like three of them made the playoffs. Efficiency is the mark of a good Offense, not statistics.
 

CowboyRoy

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First off Im a Dak fan I like the kid and who he is and how he handles himself. I dont see him being a elite QB at this time and Im not a fan of over paying him. That being said he will get paid around 33 to 35 mill with heavy guarantees. Just my feeling
The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

That's generally the way it works. Offenses have more success against worst defenses. I would also note that this offense have been playing for about 4 years together for the most part and have had good games against top 10 defenses.

Most fans mention Dak, but what did the great Zeke do in those games? Not much!!!

I would also note that despite some bad games, the offense was still #1 in the NFL. Its called an average for a reason.

Then I would add that Garrett typically went into a shell against better teams and went conservative. Coaching had something to do with it.
 

CowboyRoy

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Who said that the Cowboys didn't have one of the top Offenses? I mean, statistically, they absolutely did but in terms of how they performed against Top Ranked Defenses, they clearly did not get it done well enough to win games. I mean, that's the entire crux of the conversation. It's all well and good to throw down 500 yards against a poor defensive team and hang 46 up but if you can't score more then 9 points against New England, 10 points against the Saints, 15 against the Bills, 9 against the Eagles, it doesn't really mean anything that you are ranked as a top 10 Offense. You gotta beat teams with good defenses or you might as well be playing Flag Football.

Take a look at the top 10 Offensive ranked teams. Of the Top 10, I think only something like three of them made the playoffs. Efficiency is the mark of a good Offense, not statistics.

I agree. Guys like Zeke completely folded against great defenses.

Then of course you have the defense and coaching that was also bad in most of those games.

FYI...….efficiency is a statistic.
 

buybuydandavis

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The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense. Saints, Packers, Bears, Bills, Vikes, Pats and even second game against a banged up Philly Def. We couldnt score. So the question is were we just that more talented to overtake the lesser defenses or is our scheme so poor that better teams we weren't able to rely just totally on skill alone.
I mean for a team to score so many points but do nothing ( except in garbage time which made things look better in a few games)against the better defenses I feel is a cause for concern. What are your thoughts on this? Was it scheme? Dak? Coaching? Or us overvaluing our talent?

Some of it was coaching. We seemed to pucker up in play calling against good teams. It stank of Garrett. We lost against the Saints and Vikes by doggedly running Emmitt into the noses of good DTs on first downs while passing was routinely working. This was *after* our 3 game win streak going play action on 1st down 70% of the time.

A couple of games we went with our "old reliables" in Zeke and Witten at crucial times and came up short.

For the Philly loss, Dak was injured and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Should have gone with Rush. WRs were *wide* open against the Philly practice squad secondary. Cooper could have thrown those.

Against NE, it takes a quarter and a half for Dak to put on gloves in the rain. Grownups would have resolved rain equipment issues in the offseason, not midgame in Dak's 4th season.

Against the Jets, we sat Devin Smith, while Cobb was already out, and at least Cooper and Gallup were also on the injured list. Cooper decides to sit, and Austin ends up our leading WR. Could have used more depth at true wideout.

Dak ain't perfect. Few QBs are. But coaching on offense was a bigger problem, particularly against goodd teams, and at crunch time. Just the times you'd expect a HC might stick his nose into the offense.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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I'd say it's more about missing the playoffs twice in 3 years in an incredibly weak division

Again, no use talking about Romo. You guys need to learn how to make a case for Prescott without using that #9 crutch
Who’s fault is it that they have missed out on the playoffs? And any case people make for Dak just goes over you guys head. Only thing you guys understand is when Romo is brought up.
 

black label

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I went and took a quick gander at Dak’s performances since his 2nd season.


In the last 50 games (including playoffs), the Cowboys have won 2 games against teams that finished top 10 in scoring on defense. 2!

One of those games was against Philly in Week 17 in 2017. The 6-0 game against their third string
:hammer:
 

rnr_honeybadger

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Football is very much a sport where you win as a team. It does not become anymore evident than when you actually play the top teams like NE, Saints, Balitimore etc. In order to win those games you need to execute in all facets of the game. Your defense needs to be able to turn over the ball and give the offense a shorter field. The Special Teams needs to be able to actually provide decent starting field position for your offense and the offense needs to help the defense out by not turning the ball over and actually scoring points.

Now looking at what was written above, I don't think any sane (emphasis on sane) individual will claim otherwise. So ask yourself this - in the last 25 years have the Dallas Cowboys actually played like a team?
 

johneric8

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All I know is I quickly looked at Wentz and Goff and they have 3x the number of wins against the same defenses.

Wentz alone this year beat:

GB
CHI
BUF

You lost me at "Wentz Alone".. You do realize he didn't do it alone right? I can't believe how some of you Dak Haters cherry pick stats it's ludicrous.
 
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