Teams are trying to convince themselves qb is good enough

OmerV said:

With the #17 pick that is highly unlikely. Even a top 10 pick wouldn't be a certainty.

Click to expand...

Difficult, but not impossible. Plus, there's the possibility of trading up. QB is the hardest position to fill in the NFL.

Proof said:

No, I provided one. There are plenty to be found, it was just easy to show you something that fit your criteria. And what do you mean if what I'm saying is true, it's an opinion. It's neither true, nor false at this point. What IS true, is that plenty of people feel this way, which was contrary to your original point. But I'm realizing you're dumb. So, good day.

Click to expand...

If this thought was so widely thought why aren't EVERY sports personality on TV and print saying this day after day after day? If this is such a widely shared opinion why haven't the sports medias just screaming with this opinion?
.

Reid1boys said:

like I said... read the damn post.. I addressed all of those. Eli was the only non HUF qb, or QB that didnt have a GREAT defense.

Click to expand...

Not sure that the Eagles defense was GREAT when they won the Superbowl. It was ranked fourth in 2017 and it wasn't really what I would call dominant. When the Ravens won the Superbowl in 2012 their defense was ranked 12th. So I'm not sure how that fits your assumption. I went back through the years and here are my findings since 2002 (started with TB):

New England - 5 superbowls = 29% this is a combination of HOF coach and QB.
Other HOF QBs = 41% (Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben and Russel Wilson)
Neither = 24% (2012 Ravens; 2x NYG; 2017 Eagles)
Defense = 6% (2002 TB).

So over the past 16 years there have only been 6 HOF QBs that won superbowls (Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben and Russel Wilson)

Over the same time period there have been 3 non-HOF QBs that won superbowls or 33% of the total.

Therefore the idea that you cannot win a Superbowl without a HOF QB or GREAT defense is just not true. Sometimes teams get hot in the playoffs or are coached really well. I will also point out that Matt Ryan, Matt Hasselback, Jared Goff and Cam Newton were very close to winning Superbowls and none of them would be HOF QBs even if they had won their respective Superbowls. That would bring the total non-HOF QBS in excess of the number of HOF QBs.

gjkoeppen said:

If this thought was so widely thought why aren't EVERY sports personality on TV and print saying this day after day after day? If this is such a widely shared opinion why haven't the sports medias just screaming with this opinion?
.

Click to expand...

Because not every sports personality feels this way? I didn't say everyone believes it, or that most think it. Just that some do and have said so. You keep moving the goalposts and demanding that information be presented in such and such way lol, it's very strange.

Reverend Conehead said:

Difficult, but not impossible. Plus, there's the possibility of trading up. QB is the hardest position to fill in the NFL.

Click to expand...

I agree it's not impossible, but the team could also do a lot more harm than good chasing the unlikely. As for the possibility of trading up, the problem is we won't know how the draft will play out or what the possibilities are until draft day, and we have to make a decision on Dak way before that. I suppose we could tag Dak and see how the draft goes, but if the draft plays out where we don't get a top QB we will have alienated the guy we will be need to count on at QB for the foreseeable future.

OmerV said:

I agree it's not impossible, but the team could also do a lot more harm than good chasing the unlikely. As for the possibility of trading up, the problem is we won't know how the draft will play out or what the possibilities are until draft day, and we have to make a decision on Dak way before that. I suppose we could tag Dak and see how the draft goes, but if the draft plays out where we don't get a top QB we will have alienated the guy we will be need to count on at QB for the foreseeable future.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's really hard and there are a lot of variables. IMO, you only aggressively go after a QB in the draft if it's clear Dak will only accept a contract that pays way too much, thus hampering us at other positions. If you can get Dak at the right price, you don't do the draft the best QB thing.

Reid1boys said:

This is great. Collin hit it on the head. He says that half the teams in the league are trying to convince themselves that their QB is good enough. The bears...... yep. Remember the chiefs with Smith? The would say he is good enough... and as Colin said... no he isnt.

And here we are trying to convince ourselves Dak is good enough. Did you watch Mahomes? Sad part is what else do you do?

Click to expand...

What you do is acknowledge that fact that you aren't qualified to understand the QB position or your unrealistic expectations.

Did you bother watching the very next game that day? Where Garrapolo threw the ball 10 times for 100 yards and SF killed the GREAT AARON ROGERS?

Rogers didn't have the defense to match up. He also really only has one great passing weapon in Davante Adams. Coach is a rookie coach.

Mahones has arguably the best passing weapons in the NFL as well as arguably the best offensive mind in the NFL.

Two generational type talents with different teams around them and coaching.

Prescott is clearly good enough to win a title with. He’s better than quite a few QBs who have made SB appearances recently.

Flacco
Kaepernick
Newton
Manning in his last season
Foles
Ryan
Goff

Dak is as good as or better than all those QBs. I’d argue he’s no worse than Garappolo.

We won 13 games in his rookie year. We can certainly win a SB in the prime of his career if the pieces and coaching around him are adequate.

Reverend Conehead said:

Yeah, it's really hard and there are a lot of variables. IMO, you only aggressively go after a QB in the draft if it's clear Dak will only accept a contract that pays way too much, thus hampering us at other positions. If you can get Dak at the right price, you don't do the draft the best QB thing.

Click to expand...

Of course, there is a pretty sizable disagreement on the board as to what is too much. I personally think $30-35 MM/year is just what it's going to take to keep quality QBs these days, even if they are less than Mahomes/Rodgers/Wilson/Brees/Brady level. Fans like to think that kind of pay is out of line, but the market says otherwise, and those that refuse to compete within the dictates of the current market will find themselves with a bottom level QB.

Reverend Conehead said:

It's possible to win the Super Bowl with a good, but not great, QB. See Mark Rypien, Trent Dilfer, and Jim McMahan. However, it's a lot easier to win with an elite quarterback. We have numerous examples -- Roger Staubach, Joe Montana, Tom Brady (and many more). Thus, if you have a good quarterback, but get the opportunity to upgrade to a great one, you do it. We upgraded from Craig Morton to Roger Staubach. The 49ers upgraded from Steve DeBerg to Joe Montana.

The big question is -- is there someone out there we could draft who would be a big upgrade over Dak?

Click to expand...

really? The Commanders (i just looked) led the NFL in scoring that season with Rypien, and allowed the 2nd fewest points that season. Rypien led the NFC in yards and Td passes that season. So while he isnt a HOFer.... he was for that season.

Dilfer played for the 2000 Ravens who happened to have one of the top 3 or 4 greatest defense in NFL HISTORY. McMahon played for the 85 Bears who many say was the grestest defense in NFL history... so those back up EXACTLY WHAT I SAID in this thread. Using McMahon, Dilfer and Rypien are horrible examples. But hell yes, if our defense plays like the 85 bears or the 2000 Ravens.. damn straight Dak can win a SB.

IslandCowboy said:

Not sure that the Eagles defense was GREAT when they won the Superbowl. It was ranked fourth in 2017 and it wasn't really what I would call dominant. When the Ravens won the Superbowl in 2012 their defense was ranked 12th. So I'm not sure how that fits your assumption. I went back through the years and here are my findings since 2002 (started with TB):

New England - 5 superbowls = 29% this is a combination of HOF coach and QB.
Other HOF QBs = 41% (Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben and Russel Wilson)
Neither = 24% (2012 Ravens; 2x NYG; 2017 Eagles)
Defense = 6% (2002 TB).

So over the past 16 years there have only been 6 HOF QBs that won superbowls (Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning, Aaron Rodgers, Big Ben and Russel Wilson)

Over the same time period there have been 3 non-HOF QBs that won superbowls or 33% of the total.

Therefore the idea that you cannot win a Superbowl without a HOF QB or GREAT defense is just not true. Sometimes teams get hot in the playoffs or are coached really well. I will also point out that Matt Ryan, Matt Hasselback, Jared Goff and Cam Newton were very close to winning Superbowls and none of them would be HOF QBs even if they had won their respective Superbowls. That would bring the total non-HOF QBS in excess of the number of HOF QBs.

Click to expand...

well your stats are nuts....you are taking out the fact that Brady didnt win 1 SB, neither did Manning, there was not 33% of SUPER BOWLS won by non HOF type QBs. Also, Rypien was the best QB in the NFC and the team he played for was the 2nd best defense in the league, and his offense was 1st in the NFL. Cam Newton was the league MVP in his SB season... so again, not a HOFer, but if he played every season like he did in his SB season, hed be one of the greatest qbs to have ever played.

CowboyRoy said:

What you do is acknowledge that fact that you aren't qualified to understand the QB position or your unrealistic expectations.

Did you bother watching the very next game that day? Where Garrapolo threw the ball 10 times for 100 yards and SF killed the GREAT AARON ROGERS?

Rogers didn't have the defense to match up. He also really only has one great passing weapon in Davante Adams. Coach is a rookie coach.

Mahones has arguably the best passing weapons in the NFL as well as arguably the best offensive mind in the NFL.

Two generational type talents with different teams around them and coaching.

Click to expand...

blah blah blah... the niners have the best defense in the NFL, backing up exactly what I have been saying this entire thread. Im assuming you only read here and there and not all of what I have said.

CATCH17 said:

When Tyreek Hill was out he did fine.

When Kelce was out in the playoffs the backup TE scored 2 TD's.

His supporting cast is good but his abilities makes everyone on the field look better.

This is all about Mahomes.

Mahomes enhances talent.. Talent enhances Dak.

Click to expand...

He has one of his best supporting cast out....wooaaa is me lol

CATCH17 said:

He is.. He's one of the QB's who has broke through who isn't worth their salary.

The 9ers are an example of a team we would have to be like. Figuring out a way to win with a QB who isn't worth their pay.

Click to expand...

I hate the Niners. Despise. Loathe that team above all others (tied w/NYG). But, I'm not sure that Jimmy G deserves the scoffing dismissal as a lower tier QB.

I think he's right about where Dak is, probably a bit better. IMO, he is definitely good enough to win a SB with- and sadly I think it happens in two weeks.

mmohican29 said:

I hate the Niners. Despise. Loathe that team above all others (tied w/NYG). But, I'm not sure that Jimmy G deserves the scoffing dismissal as a lower tier QB.

I think he's right about where Dak is, probably a bit better. IMO, he is definitely good enough to win a SB with- and sadly I think it happens in two weeks.

Click to expand...

I agree. They're about the same.

TWOK11 said:

Prescott is clearly good enough to win a title with. He’s better than quite a few QBs who have made SB appearances recently.

Flacco
Kaepernick
Newton
Manning in his last season
Foles
Ryan
Goff

Dak is as good as or better than all those QBs. I’d argue he’s no worse than Garappolo.

We won 13 games in his rookie year. We can certainly win a SB in the prime of his career if the pieces and coaching around him are adequate.

Click to expand...

Don’t forget Eli. And yes he is at least as good as Jimmy G. Realistically he is better than Jimmy G. And Jimmy G has a relatively large contract.

Furboy said:

I know we are on our way. I'm excited to see what McCarthy does.

Click to expand...

I was being VERY sarcastic about us being on our way since we now have Bik Mike. lol

Had some time to kill so here's the list I made that goes along with the data I posted earlier in the thread. Sorry the formatting options are not friendly.


Year QB-W Off Rush Rnk Def Rnk QB-L Off Rush Rnk Def Rnk

1990 J. Montana 10 4 J. Elway 6 3

1991 J. Hostetler 8 2 J. Kelly 7 8

1992 M. Rypien 7 3 J. Kelly 1 27

1993 T. Aikman 5 1 J. Kelly 1 12

1994 T. Aikman 2 10 J. Kelly 8 27

1995 S. Young 6 8 S. Humphries 7 14

1996 T. Aikman 2 9 N. O’Donnell 12 3

1997 B. Favre 11 1 D. Bledsoe 26 19

1998 J. Elway 4 5 B. Favre 12 7

1999 J. Elway 2 11 C. Chandler 6 8

2000 K. Warner 5 6 S. McNair 13 17

2001 T. Dilfer 5 2 K. Collins 11 5

2002 T. Brady 13 24 K. Warner 5 3

2003 B. Johnson 27 1 R. Gannon 18 11

2004 T. Brady 27 7 J. Delhomme 7 8

2005 T. Brady 7 9 D. McNabb 24 10

2006 B. Roeth 5 4 M. Hasselbeck 3 16

2007 P. Manning 18 21 R. Grossman 15 5

2008 E. Manning 4 7 T. Brady 13 4

2009 B. Roeth 23 1 K. Warner 32 19

2010 D. Brees 6 25 P. Manning 32 18

2011 A. Rodgers 24 5 B. Roeth 11 2

2012 E. Manning 32 27 T. Brady 20 31

2013 J. Flacco 11 17 C. Kaep 4 3

2014 R. Wilson 4 1 P. Manning 15 19

2015 T. Brady 18 13 R. Wilson 1 1

2016 P. Manning 17 1 C. Newton 2 6

2017 T. Brady 7 8 M. Ryan 5 25

2018 N. Foles 3 4 T. Brady 10 29

2019 T. Brady 5 21 J. Goff 3 19

2020 ?J. Garop 2 2 ? P. Mahomes 23 17

TWOK11 said:

Prescott is clearly good enough to win a title with. He’s better than quite a few QBs who have made SB appearances recently.

Flacco
Kaepernick
Newton
Manning in his last season
Foles
Ryan
Goff

Dak is as good as or better than all those QBs. I’d argue he’s no worse than Garappolo.

We won 13 games in his rookie year. We can certainly win a SB in the prime of his career if the pieces and coaching around him are adequate.

Click to expand...

Flacco.... hard to explain
Kaepernick had an outstanding defense
Newton was the MVP of the league... so that was a HOF season
Manning in hi slast season had the best defense in football with an amazing pass rush
Foles another outlier that i mentioned
Ryan threw for just under 5k yards with 38tds and 7 ints that year... again, an MVP type season
Goff threw for about 4700 yards and 32 tds that season and the rams had the best offense in the NFL that year.

So while you can piint to QBs that arent exactly going to be HOF that barely missed a SB... in that ONE season they basically played at a HOF level. Same with Mark Rypien who someone wanted to call avg... welll that season he wasnt avg as his team led the league in points scored and his defense was 2nd in the NFL in points allowed.

So yeah, if Dak puts up one MVP type season... yeah, we got a shot.

Proof said:

Because not every sports personality feels this way? I didn't say everyone believes it, or that most think it. Just that some do and have said so. You keep moving the goalposts and demanding that information be presented in such and such way lol, it's very strange.

Click to expand...

The goalposts haven't moved an inch. I've said from the very beginning that proclaiming Mchomes one of the best all time is way way way to soon and I haven't budged on that nor will I budge on that at this time. MAYBE in another 6, 7 or 8 years form now I may but not after just TWO seasons. You are the one that said there are all these sports personalities that agree with your opinion and you gave one so I said if your opinion was so wide spread believed then every sports person would be saying it every day. Because one does that does not make it any less foolish and premature.
.