Problem I have with Dak and our Offense

WillieBeamen said:

Only thing foolish, is you...


It works both ways, I can say the games that he “won” the defense carried him the entire game ie week 17 in 2017

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Absolutely - you're correct. That would be the proper way to analyze the situation. W/L record fully attributed to the offense regardless of circumstance makes zero sense. Of course, you understand that but it's convenient for a narrative.

MaineBoy said:

Dak, is that you ? Better receivers ? Puleeese...we could have Jerry Rice and Michael Irvin running routes for Dak and he would still be throwing half of his passes too high, behind, or in the dirt. They’d be wasted unless the better receivers are throwing the ball for Dak too. Keep spinning, Brother, but your Dak love is blurring your vision. Hopefully, Dak’s accuracy can improve when he’s throwing 6-8 yard passes in the the new West Coast hybrid scheme. If not, you’ll need to spin even harder.

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If Dak starts over/underthrowing his 6-8 yard targets, I'll be right there with you demanding his replacement brother.

ABQCOWBOY said:

Didn't say winning teams. Said Top Ranked Defenses.

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You know why defenses are top ranked right? It’s not easy to beat them lol everyone’s record against top ranked defenses is worse than their record against average or bad defenses. Other guys get paid too man

817Gill said:

You know why defenses are top ranked right? It’s not easy to beat them lol everyone’s record against top ranked defenses is worse than their record against average or bad defenses. Other guys get paid too man

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Perhaps, but again, if you want to be the highest paid player in the NFL, then all of this doesn't make a hill of beans to me. You better be able to beat some good Defenses and you better be able to score more then 9 to 15 points in 4 win or go home games. Other guys do get paid but none of them are making 40 mil a year. Also, I don't care what other teams do. I care what we do. If other teams want to go down this path and pay QBs this way, that's fine. I don't think I want to follow them over a cliff.

That's just how I see it.

SackMaster said:

As with virtually everything Cowboys in the Garrett Era, teams knew what the Boys were doing before the Boys knew, on offense and defense.

That's great in all when you are vastly superior talent and/or coaching, but it does not work so good if the talent is similar or a coach is able to counter it.

I am confident that MM will not make the same mistake JG did with his outdated "just beat the man in front of you" from the 90's.

JMHO

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Whether it was Garrett or not, one thing you said ""just beat the man in front of you" from the 90's" isn't just a 90's thing, has been true ever since they started playing the game and it's still true today. EVERY play is designed so that EVERY player beats the man in front of him for it to work. Just about every play on any team where that play didn't work with the exception of the QB throwing an incomplete pass failed because someone didn't beat the man in front of him. If a RB gets tackled for a loss or only for a 1 yard gain, it's because a linemen didn't beat the man in front of him. Beating the man in front of you will exist as long as they play football.
.

IheartRomo said:

Absolutely - you're correct. That would be the proper way to analyze the situation. W/L record fully attributed to the offense regardless of circumstance makes zero sense. Of course, you understand that but it's convenient for a narrative.

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No.

The proper way to analyze the situation without becoming emo (<-you)

A quick look at the numbers shows that Dak had a passer rating over 100 in just two of those games (Jacksonville, Minnesota)

He had a passer rating in the 90s in two of those games and one we can agree he was stat padding (Tennessee, Bills)

So even if we consider those all solid performances, that leaves 9 more games with a passer rating under 90.


Now before you come with the excuses (without Tyron, no Coop) he is 0-7 in those games WITH Cooper. He has 10 TDs and 8 Ints in those games.

Shall I go further?

WillieBeamen said:

Its Dak



He consistently has receivers open but is not seeing the field well AT ALL


We didnt have this problem on offense when the last QB was here

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In need of a Lasik procedure maybe?

Nothing wrong with the offense a good QB with some accuracy wouldn't fix.

Floatyworm said:

Nothing wrong with the offense a good QB with some accuracy wouldn't fix.

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A good QB with some accuracy would easily yield 7k+ yards with Zeke commanding 9 defenders in the box every down.

WillieBeamen said:

No.

The proper way to analyze the situation without becoming emo (<-you)

A quick look at the numbers shows that Dak had a passer rating over 100 in just two of those games (Jacksonville, Minnesota)

He had a passer rating in the 90s in two of those games and one we can agree he was stat padding (Tennessee, Bills)

So even if we consider those all solid performances, that leaves 9 more games with a passer rating under 90.


Now before you come with the excuses (without Tyron, no Coop) he is 0-7 in those games WITH Cooper. He has 10 TDs and 8 Ints in those games.

Shall I go further?

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This is a far better argument. Only thing it would need in addition to actually show anything would be a comparison with other QBs' performances against top 10 defenses over the same time frame. Without that, you can't make an apples to apples comparison. Dak's QB rating vs. the upper echelon of defenses the last 3 years shouldn't be compared to another QB's rating overall. All QBs play worse against top 10 defenses than they do against bottom 10 defenses, of course.

gjkoeppen said:

Whether it was Garrett or not, one thing you said ""just beat the man in front of you" from the 90's" isn't just a 90's thing, has been true ever since they started playing the game and it's still true today. EVERY play is designed so that EVERY player beats the man in front of him for it to work. Just about every play on any team where that play didn't work with the exception of the QB throwing an incomplete pass failed because someone didn't beat the man in front of him. If a RB gets tackled for a loss or only for a 1 yard gain, it's because a linemen didn't beat the man in front of him. Beating the man in front of you will exist as long as they play football.
.

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I think you are misunderstanding to what level Garrett took it to.

I understand that execution is a part of any team sport, but in Garrett's era, it did not matter if there was a mismatch that gave the opposing team a big advantage, he REFUSED to change his scheme or game plan to counter act it.

The absolute easiest example of this is 2017 game of Dallas vs Atlanta. Despite Chad Green being absolutely over-matched by Adrian Clayborne, Garrett never adjusted and left Green out there all alone to get his butt kicked. And it was not like Adrian Clayborne was a great passrusher either as in that SINGLE GAME, Adrian recorded more sacks (6.0) than he had in 5 of his 7 "full seasons" (2 seasons he played 3 or less games). He only beat that SINGLE GAME sack total by his Rookie Year (7.5) and his 2017 year (9.5). (How mediocre are you to get 6 sacks in a game and still fail to hit double digits for the season?)

Another example of the refusing to help players via schemes like the use of "Rub Routes" in the NFL. It's not a every play tactic for most teams, but where you would see it about a handful of times a game for most teams, we may have seen it a handful of times in a decade.

I am not suggesting that players are completely free of blame by not being able to beat the man in front of them. What I am saying is that Garrett was incapable or too stubborn to adjust when a player was over-matched, or regularly implementing a scheme or tactic to put players in better positions to succeed.

Cwby41 said:

The problem with our offense is that we poured it on against every bad defense we played and shut off against any decent to good defense.

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It was both to a degree.

as for Dak, the only reason to draft Dak was for a play action deep O ... he can do that exceptionally well and is getting better
consider Dak's 2019 mission, get Red Zone scoring up (19 TD / 0 INTs) and get the ball down field (2nd in 20y+completion with 8.2 YPA ... 30 TDs) ... he will get $30M/+

Dak was much of the solution - and not much of the problem. but notice something about Dak's numbers and QB stats, how a little is a lot ... another 2 TD passes would have likely meant a playoff birth. But aren't we discounting STs ... worst starting field position in NFL probably, and high scoring Os convert TOs ... we had a NFL low 6 INTs

Note, we are bragging about getting rid of an O minded HC in exchange for another with little attention paid to a light weight DL and horrific STs ...
but why? just change? sort of?

It may strike many as crazy but I'd hoped the STC and DC would be flipped and JG left in place. it's MM and MN and STs and JJ that give me concern, not Dak or Kellen.

IheartRomo said:

This is a far better argument. Only thing it would need in addition to actually show anything would be a comparison with other QBs' performances against top 10 defenses over the same time frame. Without that, you can't make an apples to apples comparison. Dak's QB rating vs. the upper echelon of defenses the last 3 years shouldn't be compared to another QB's rating overall. All QBs play worse against top 10 defenses than they do against bottom 10 defenses, of course.

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You are missing the point.


I really dont care about what other QBs do, being that I am a Cowboys fan and am only concerned about what MY Team’s quarteback does.

Whether its coaching or the roster, this team doesnt play well in these games, especially Dak. The defense has its share of duds in these games which leads to my overall point. If Dak gets $40m, the talent around him will deteriorate...Then what??

As far as other QBs, I did a quick look and Lamar Jackson Jimmy G, Mayfield, and Wentz, have multiple wins and <100 passer rating
Performances in 2019 alone against top 10 scoring defenses.

WillieBeamen said:

You are missing the point.


I really dont care about what other QBs do, being that I am a Cowboys fan and am only concerned about what MY Team’s quarteback does.

Whether its coaching or the roster, this team doesnt play well in these games, especially Dak. The defense has its share of duds in these games which leads to my overall point. If Dak gets $40m, the talent around him will deteriorate...Then what??

As far as other QBs, I did a quick look and Lamar Jackson Jimmy G, Mayfield, and Wentz, have multiple wins and <100 passer rating
Performances in 2019 alone against top 10 scoring defenses.

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Dak did against the Vikings as well. Small sample size be damned.

I’m not advocating for him to make $40M. But he’s just not the awful QB that some think he is around here.

The problem I have is Dak is in this offense.

As long as he's surrounded by elite talent, he'll do fine, he's just not a QB that can drag average talent out of the depths.

WillieBeamen said:

Its Dak



He consistently has receivers open but is not seeing the field well AT ALL


We didnt have this problem on offense when the last QB was here

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ummm ... "He consistently has receivers open but is not seeing the field well AT ALL" is a rather odd to say about a guy with a sub 2% INT rate

unless by last QB you mean Weeden ... Tony nor Dak have not been the "problem" - it's weirdo defensive schemes and cowardly STs and JG's offense

it's not by accident Dak and Tony's career numbers are so close Tony with a higher TD%, Dak the lower INT%
http://www.nfl.com/player/dakprescott/2555260/careerstats ... 97.0 rating
http://www.nfl.com/player/tonyromo/2505354/careerstats ... 97.1 rating

BTW, the only timing system QBs to ever deliver better sustained numbers are Wilson and Breez
The only WCO QBs to do as well or better are Brady (sort fo ... rub) and Rodgers
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_career.htm

note, some time next year Mahomes will top them all

dfense said:

Listen, you are 100% correct. But people will argue Dak was injured. When he wasn't, it was bad coaching or scheme.There's always a fall back excuse for Dak.

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So we should have kept Garrett and cut Dak

Section446 said:

As long as he's surrounded by elite talent, he'll do fine, he's just not a QB that can drag average talent out of the depths.

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That is probably close
But few QB’s can
Some make the receivers better around them but few make the defense better, the blocking better or the coaching better