Beware's 2020 draft thread

beware_d-ware · Feb 3, 2020

I figured I'd start my own thread for writing scouting reports, plus sharing cool plays and blurbs that I find. It's kind of a dump thread for my thoughts on draft prospects and anything cool as I come across it.

Anyway, I got watching CJ Henderson today, and I'm not really a fan.

CJ Henderson

I will say, this dude is clearly an athlete. He's 6'1" and has tons of length to press and attack the ball, and when he wants to close on WRs, his speed is just something else. He was targeted 5 times here in the Miami game and ended up allowing 0 completions from it. Watch below at 2:49, 5:24, 7:03, 8:22, and 8:41 (thanks, Youtube comments!) and see how he just snaps those windows closed. Usually tall corners get pretty stiff, but he is about as fluid as you can ask for 6'1". I imagine he's going to turn some heads after the Combine.

The problem is that the dude has NO interest in tackling. He's going to jog to the ball on run plays, and if he has to make a play, he'll just dip his shoulder at the ball carrier or try and grab him with one arm. Dude wants no part of contact, it is almost Deion-esque.

Didn't see him much in zone because Florida ran mostly man, but he seems like a drop-to-the-landmark kind of zone defender.

Anyway, I don't like him at #17. Dude has all the physical traits you could want at corner, but he feels Claiborne-ish with that lack of want-to.

beware_d-ware · Feb 3, 2020

Anyone can feel free to contribute BTW, this isn't just me monologuing.

cnuball21 · Feb 3, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
Anyone can feel free to contribute BYW, this isn't just me monologuing.

Whats your current “mini big board” at 17? Who are your top 3-5 targets there?

beware_d-ware · Feb 3, 2020

cnuball21 said:
Whats your current “mini big board” at 17? Who are your top 3-5 targets there?

From the guys I've watched, I'd say,

I'd be ectastic if we picked them:
-Kinlaw
-Chaisson

I'd be happy:
-Fulton
-McKinney
-Ruggs

I'd understand but I wouldn't be thrilled:
-Delpit
-Epenesa
-Gross-Matos

I'd be ticked:
-Henderson

dallas72 · Feb 4, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
From the guys I've watched, I'd say,

I'd be ectastic if we picked them:
-Kinlaw
-Chaisson

I'd be happy:
-Fulton
-McKinney
-Ruggs

I'd understand but I wouldn't be thrilled:
-Delpit
-Epenesa
-Gross-Matos

I'd be ticked:
-Henderson

Kinlaw has medical 2 arthritis knees not great...

Canada180 · Feb 4, 2020

Chiasson pretty please please please. Sign a DT, there are lots. Sign a S there are lots. And Take Chiasson ( hope he makes it to us)

Creeper · Feb 4, 2020

dallas72 said:
Kinlaw has medical 2 arthritis knees not great...

Is this confirmed? Arthritis can be managed but it could also get progressively worse. I would love to see the medical report on this. I know he had tendinitis in his knee at the Sr. Bowl but tendinitis could be anything from nothing to serious red flag. It sounded to me like it was more of a precaution that he sat out. It does trouble me that he had a couple of great practices then chose to sit down, almost as if he proved what he wanted to but then was afraid of something. Could be he was just listening to his agent though.

The #1 trait the Cowboys need to look for in this draft is fire in the belly, competitiveness, attitude, whatever you want to call it. We need some old school guys who would play for nothing other than the fun and excitement of the game. Not saying Kinlaw doesn't have this, but a lot of players don;t and the Cowboys need to stay away from those guys. A 4th round mad-dog is better than a first round *****cat.

garyv · Feb 4, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
From the guys I've watched, I'd say,

I'd be ectastic if we picked them:
-Kinlaw
-Chaisson

I'd be happy:
-Fulton
-McKinney
-Ruggs

I'd understand but I wouldn't be thrilled:
-Delpit
-Epenesa
-Gross-Matos

I'd be ticked:
-Henderson

Respectable but why do you state I would be happy with McKinney but not thrilled with Delpit. What do you see as the difference between them ?

beware_d-ware · Feb 4, 2020

garyv said:
Respectable but why do you state I would be happy with McKinney but not thrilled with Delpit. What do you see as the difference between them ?

The short answer is that I like McKinney's versatility and I really don't care for Delpit's tackling.

McKinney can be moved all over the secondary and down into the box depending on where we need him, almost Byron Jones style, whereas I see Delpit as an FS only. It's not hard for me to picture McKinney getting used Minkah Fitzpatrick or Derwin James style. He's clearly not the athlete that James is, but he may be closer to Fitzpatrick, and heck yes I would take a shot at getting my own Minkah Fitzpatrick at #17.

The Combine will be fun to see for them both, honestly. With McKinney, I want to check his straight-line speed and explosion. Delpit's 40 would be good to check as well, and I just want to see what he goes in the shuttle and 3-cone for kicks, because he's got some Gumby hips. 90th percentile in both wouldn't surprise me.

Future · Feb 4, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
The short answer is that I like McKinney's versatility and I really don't care for Delpit's tackling.

McKinney can be moved all over the secondary and down into the box depending on where we need him, almost Byron Jones style, whereas I see Delpit as an FS only. It's not hard for me to picture McKinney getting used Minkah Fitzpatrick or Derwin James style. He's clearly not the athlete that James is, but he may be closer to Fitzpatrick, and heck yes I would take a shot at getting my own Minkah Fitzpatrick at #17.

The Combine will be fun to see for them both, honestly. With McKinney, I want to check his straight-line speed and explosion. Delpit's 40 would be good to check as well, and I just want to see what he goes in the shuttle and 3-cone for kicks, because he's got some Gumby hips. 90th percentile in both wouldn't surprise me.

Interesting thought on McKinney, but I don't know if he has the coverage skills to do what Minkah does.

Paintrain4978 · Feb 4, 2020

Creeper said:
Is this confirmed? Arthritis can be managed but it could also get progressively worse. I would love to see the medical report on this. I know he had tendinitis in his knee at the Sr. Bowl but tendinitis could be anything from nothing to serious red flag. It sounded to me like it was more of a precaution that he sat out. It does trouble me that he had a couple of great practices then chose to sit down, almost as if he proved what he wanted to but then was afraid of something. Could be he was just listening to his agent though.

The #1 trait the Cowboys need to look for in this draft is fire in the belly, competitiveness, attitude, whatever you want to call it. We need some old school guys who would play for nothing other than the fun and excitement of the game. Not saying Kinlaw doesn't have this, but a lot of players don;t and the Cowboys need to stay away from those guys. A 4th round mad-dog is better than a first round *****cat.

I heard tendinitis not arthritis not sure what is worse but it sounded precautionary to me after he had 2 great days of practice at the senior bowl. He’s likely a top 20 pick so why risk aggravating anything. I couldn’t find any injury history when I comes to his knees in his career so if he’s had it he’s likely managed it well enough to play.

John813 · Feb 4, 2020

I like Henderson as a corner coverage wise. I agree I'm not sure he's a pick at #17 though.

Day 2 for sure if he fell that far*

*Unless he has red flags galore.

Creeper · Feb 4, 2020

Paintrain4978 said:
I heard tendinitis not arthritis not sure what is worse but it sounded precautionary to me after he had 2 great days of practice at the senior bowl. He’s likely a top 20 pick so why risk aggravating anything. I couldn’t find any injury history when I comes to his knees in his career so if he’s had it he’s likely managed it well enough to play.

Arthritis is worse. Its a degeneration of the cartilage in the knee. It usually gets worse with age and continuous stress on the joint. Tendinitis just means the tendon is inflamed. It depends on why its inflamed but it could just be he twisted his knee a little but it could also mean he has a tear or bone spur. Those might require surgery to repair but the prognosis would be 100% recovery unless its a catastrophic injury to the joint like Jaylon Smith had. Kinlaw does not have that obviously.

If he has arthritis that's a red flag and teams will be cautious with him. The will want further examination of the joint to determine who much the knee can tolerate. It doesn't necessarily mean he will drop in the draft. If its mild and team doctors figure he has 5 or more years, I think teams will ignore it. If its just tendinitis he will get cleared medically at the combine.

I haven't seen anything about arthritis when it comes to Kinlaw. I think he had some mild inflammation and he was extra cautious. I doubt it will effect his draft position unless he has another flairup or something. If, for example, he misses the combine because of it that may scare off some teams. But it would scare me off too!

dallas72 · Feb 4, 2020

Creeper said:
Is this confirmed? Arthritis can be managed but it could also get progressively worse. I would love to see the medical report on this. I know he had tendinitis in his knee at the Sr. Bowl but tendinitis could be anything from nothing to serious red flag. It sounded to me like it was more of a precaution that he sat out. It does trouble me that he had a couple of great practices then chose to sit down, almost as if he proved what he wanted to but then was afraid of something. Could be he was just listening to his agent though.

The #1 trait the Cowboys need to look for in this draft is fire in the belly, competitiveness, attitude, whatever you want to call it. We need some old school guys who would play for nothing other than the fun and excitement of the game. Not saying Kinlaw doesn't have this, but a lot of players don;t and the Cowboys need to stay away from those guys. A 4th round mad-dog is better than a first round *****cat.

Yes..why do u think he didnt play in Sr bowl...google it

cnuball21 · Feb 4, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
The short answer is that I like McKinney's versatility and I really don't care for Delpit's tackling.

McKinney can be moved all over the secondary and down into the box depending on where we need him, almost Byron Jones style, whereas I see Delpit as an FS only. It's not hard for me to picture McKinney getting used Minkah Fitzpatrick or Derwin James style. He's clearly not the athlete that James is, but he may be closer to Fitzpatrick, and heck yes I would take a shot at getting my own Minkah Fitzpatrick at #17.

The Combine will be fun to see for them both, honestly. With McKinney, I want to check his straight-line speed and explosion. Delpit's 40 would be good to check as well, and I just want to see what he goes in the shuttle and 3-cone for kicks, because he's got some Gumby hips. 90th percentile in both wouldn't surprise me.

I actually disagree about McKinney and almost see him as the opposite of Delpit.

I think McKinney will be great against the run and close to the LOS but won’t have the athleticism to cover the slot and good TEs.

I see Delpit being great in coverage, and having the athletic ability to play slot CB and run with the TEs. Needs to develop as a tackler to help more against run.

I could see almost a .10 second difference in their 40 times with the better going to Delpit.

I really like them both, just depends what you want in the safety.

beware_d-ware · Feb 4, 2020

Just watched Albert Okwuegbunamn (thank you for copy-paste!) tonight.

Not going to write much, because I don't really see much. He's 6'5" 260 and looks every bit of it on the field, especially when he walks out to the slot. He's fast in a straight line, and shows plenty of willingness to block. Most promisingly, he has a talent for walling off defenders and making the catch with contact all over him.

That's about where the positives end though. Very raw technique as a blocker; he tends to stand straight up and just lean on people. While that does get some movement because he just has so much size, it doesn't project well to the next level. His routes are telegraphed from a mile away and he looks sluggish coming in and out of breaks. I think he's almost playing too heavy to cut well, but it does seem to be good weight, so maybe he just doesn't have that kind of quickness in him. I think he could give your average NFL linebacker problems on a vertical route, but I don't think they'd have any trouble sticking with him on an underneath pattern.

He's got a 3rd or 4th round grade in my book. I'd compare him Dawson Knox from last year, not for his game so much as they're both just totally unshapen balls of clay. The starter level talent is there for Okwuegbunamn (thanks to copy-paste again!), but you are going to have to coach him on pretty much everything from scratch.

Paintrain4978 · Feb 5, 2020

Creeper said:
Arthritis is worse. Its a degeneration of the cartilage in the knee. It usually gets worse with age and continuous stress on the joint. Tendinitis just means the tendon is inflamed. It depends on why its inflamed but it could just be he twisted his knee a little but it could also mean he has a tear or bone spur. Those might require surgery to repair but the prognosis would be 100% recovery unless its a catastrophic injury to the joint like Jaylon Smith had. Kinlaw does not have that obviously.

If he has arthritis that's a red flag and teams will be cautious with him. The will want further examination of the joint to determine who much the knee can tolerate. It doesn't necessarily mean he will drop in the draft. If its mild and team doctors figure he has 5 or more years, I think teams will ignore it. If its just tendinitis he will get cleared medically at the combine.

I haven't seen anything about arthritis when it comes to Kinlaw. I think he had some mild inflammation and he was extra cautious. I doubt it will effect his draft position unless he has another flairup or something. If, for example, he misses the combine because of it that may scare off some teams. But it would scare me off too!

Thanks for clearing that up. When I heard about possible knee issues with him I looked up what that could mean the only thing I found was possible tendinitis and he left the senior bowl as a precautionary measure. There were no knee issues that I could find in his collegiate career. Like you said, we’ll know more at the combine but tendinitis does scare me from drafting him if he drops.

beware_d-ware · Feb 9, 2020

Two more scouting reports for you guys.

Ashtyn Davis: Great athlete. Straight-line fast and has fluid hips, and he's very willing to mix it up and get physical. If you want a single-high free safety, he's got the speed to do it. If you want a box SS, he's tough enough to play there as well. Man coverage is very good too thanks to those hips.

Where he's way behind the top safety prospects is the mental side of the game. Davis has to see something before he triggers on it - remember Dak needing to see a WR break open before he released the ball? it's like that - so that "mental trigger" lags way behind his physical one. In zone, he just drops to a spot and doesn't really react to what's happening in front of him.

I'd stick him with a 2nd round grade. All the physical tools are there to be a starter - I think he'll test as a better athlete than Xavier McKinney, for example - but the mental part is pretty rudimentary. He's a guy you can afford to gamble on the traits and see if you can coach him on the rest. The floor's not great, but his athleticism and versatility make it reasonable, and the ceiling's high if it all comes together. His floor reminds me of C-Will in a way: Williams was the real deal aside from strength, we banked on the strength coming in, it hasn't, but he's still at least a meh guard. So Williams has been disappointing, but he's not a total washout either. That's kind of the worst case for Davis.

Justin Madibuike: I was THIS close to starting up the hype train for Madibuike. As an athlete, he is the real frickin' deal. Former DE with GREAT agility and speed, and he can knife into the backfield like no one's business. And I know that saying that automatically sets you guys up to expect a Maliek Collins type penetrator who gets washed out against the run, but he's got a surprising amount of power to stuff run plays. I'll get some GIFs for you guys tomorrow, but he is really impressive.

What bothers me is that his effort comes and goes, and I read that he's had work ethic issues at TAMU. That's a no-go for me. You know what they say about leading a horse to water - a guy can be the best athlete in the world, but if he doesn't want to play, he doesn't want to play. Just look at Taco. Talent-wise, I think Madibuike is a first rounder all the way, but you can't fix lazy and you can't fix soft. Only the player himself can, and I'm not going to bet a premium pick that Madibuike turns it around.

Chrisdd · Feb 9, 2020

beware_d-ware said:
Two more scouting reports for you guys.

Ashtyn Davis: Great athlete. Straight-line fast and has fluid hips, and he's very willing to mix it up and get physical. If you want a single-high free safety, he's got the speed to do it. If you want a box SS, he's tough enough to play there as well. Man coverage is very good too thanks to those hips.

Where he's way behind the top safety prospects is the mental side of the game. Davis has to see something before he triggers on it - remember Dak needing to see a WR break open before he released the ball? it's like that - so that "mental trigger" lags way behind his physical one. In zone, he just drops to a spot and doesn't really react to what's happening in front of him.

I'd stick him with a 2nd round grade. All the physical tools are there to be a starter - I think he'll test as a better athlete than Xavier McKinney, for example - but the mental part is pretty rudimentary. He's a guy you can afford to gamble on the traits and see if you can coach him on the rest. The floor's not great, but his athleticism and versatility make it reasonable, and the ceiling's high if it all comes together. His floor reminds me of C-Will in a way: Williams was the real deal aside from strength, we banked on the strength coming in, it hasn't, but he's still at least a meh guard. So Williams has been disappointing, but he's not a total washout either. That's kind of the worst case for Davis.

Justin Madibuike: I was THIS close to starting up the hype train for Madibuike. As an athlete, he is the real frickin' deal. Former DE with GREAT agility and speed, and he can knife into the backfield like no one's business. And I know that saying that automatically sets you guys up to expect a Maliek Collins type penetrator who gets washed out against the run, but he's got a surprising amount of power to stuff run plays. I'll get some GIFs for you guys tomorrow, but he is really impressive.

What bothers me is that his effort comes and goes, and I read that he's had work ethic issues at TAMU. That's a no-go for me. You know what they say about leading a horse to water - a guy can be the best athlete in the world, but if he doesn't want to play, he doesn't want to play. Just look at Taco. Talent-wise, I think Madibuike is a first rounder all the way, but you can't fix lazy and you can't fix soft. Only the player himself can, and I'm not going to bet a premium pick that Madibuike turns it around.

I still love the kid (Ashtyn Davis), I hope we get him in the 2nd.

Carson · Feb 9, 2020

He just seems that typical Florida Gator secondary player (Minus Joe Haden and Dunbar as of late). Tons of flash, not interested in tackling and won’t pan out

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