13 years

[rcaldw]

Thank you for starting this



really?



Right ...... that is being reasonable

:laugh2:

Zrin, are you gonna honestly tell me that you believe that if it were possible to guarantee Jerry a Super Bowl he would resign as GM? For good?

You really believe that Jerry is the GM because he believes he is the BEST GM in football? Because if you want to win Super Bowls, and you have the money to do it, don't you go hire the best GM you can hire, and the best Head Coach you can hire?

Other than Parcells, (since Jimmy left), why has Jerry continued to hire head coaches that are "manageable" for him?

Can you honestly say that you believe that Jerry only makes decisions with winning in view?

Btw, just to be clear, I didn't mean "loser" in a personal way. I meant losing our little debate.

And also to be clear. I don't mind you or anyone else disagreeing with me. It is what makes this board what it is. I don't take it personally, and I don't mean to make it personal either. If I have, I'm sorry.

 

[rcaldw]

So basically Mr. Reasonable ..... you are saying that playoff wins are the same thing as Superbowls.

Glad your silly standards are so high.

But in actuality ..... it was 15 years between Rogers Superbowl's and Troy's

But keep spinning.

I'm not spinning. You are. For you, to not win a Championship is treated like what we have had since 1996. that isn't reality.

1980 NFC Championship game (2 playoff wins before losing to Philly)
1981 NFC Championship game (Blew out Tampa 38-0 in divisional round before losing to 49ers)
1982 NFC Championship game (2 playoff wins before losing at Washington)


Do you think that seasons like that really are equal to what we have seen around Dallas since 1996?

 

[zrinkill]

Zrin, are you gonna honestly tell me that you believe that if it were possible to guarantee Jerry a Super Bowl he would resign as GM? For good?

Yes I think if you guaranteed him a Championship he would relinquish the "GM" title.Unfortunately no one can prove that either way.

You really believe that Jerry is the GM because he believes he is the BEST GM in football?

I believe Jerry thinks he cares about the team more than anyone he could hire ..... and that he has learned from some of the greatest Football minds in our time.

Other than Parcells, (since Jimmy left), why has Jerry continued to hire head coaches that are "manageable" for him?

I think he hires good coaches, just not always good leaders. And I also think that the Salary cap hell we got into in the mid 90's had more to do with the 5/11 seasons than coaching.

Can you honestly say that you believe that Jerry only makes decisions with winning in view?

Yes ..... I just think Jerry many times thinks with his heart more than his Football educated mind.

Btw, just to be clear, I didn't mean "loser" in a personal way. I meant losing our little debate.

No problem .... though I obviously disagree with that assessment.

And also to be clear. I don't mind you or anyone else disagreeing with me. It is what makes this board what it is. I don't take it personally, and I don't mean to make it personal either.

I never take it personal unless someone makes it that way.

 

[Fletch]

But for those who wonder why people give Jimmy credit for the 90's and Jerry credit for what has been after, it is because since 1996, the Cowboys have not been playoff successful.

Whoever you want to give 89-96 credit to, some say Jerry and Jimmy, some say Jimmy with Jerry writing the checks, since that time someone has lost his touch.

It had to be Jerry & Jimmy. Look at what Jimmy did with the Dolphins after leaving Jerry and the Cowboys. Squat! It definitely wasn't all Jimmy Johnson.

 

[zrinkill]

I'm not spinning. You are. For you, to not win a Championship is treated like what we have had since 1996. that isn't reality.

1980 NFC Championship game (2 playoff wins before losing to Philly)
1981 NFC Championship game (Blew out Tampa 38-0 in divisional round before losing to 49ers)
1982 NFC Championship game (2 playoff wins before losing at Washington)


Do you think that seasons like that really are equal to what we have seen around Dallas since 1996?

Yes I think the 2007 Cowboys was just as good as any of those teams.

We had a dinged up Owens and had to play a very good team that we had already beaten twice that year.

I think we would have beaten any other NFC team we had faced ..... and I think if we had lost to the giants earlier in that year we would have won that Playoff game ..... its almost impossible to beat a team 3 times in a row.

(as a matter of fact ..... Chan Gaily's team had the same problem against the Cards in 1998, Which should have been another playoff win .... except we had to face the same team 3 times after beating them 2 in the regular season)

I actually PM'd another Jerry hater about that before the Giants game ...... let me see if I can find it.

 

[Rampage]

Yes I think the 2007 Cowboys was just as good as any of those teams.

We had a dinged up Owens and had to play a very good team that we had already beaten twice that year.

I think we would have beaten any other NFC team we had faced ..... and I think if we had lost to the giants earlier in that year we would have won that Playoff game ..... its almost impossible to beat a team 3 times in a row.

(as a matter of fact ..... Chan Gaily's team had the same problem against the Cards in 1998, Which should have been another playoff win .... except we had to face the same team 3 times after beating them 2 in the regular season)

I actually PM'd another Jerry hater about that before the Giants game ...... let me see if I can find it.

it's been done more times than not.

 

[zrinkill]

it's been done more times than not.

Huh?

You mean its easy to beat a good team 3 times in a row? You do remember that the Giants won the Superbowl that year right?

You really say some crazy stuff.

 

[rcaldw]

Yes I think the 2007 Cowboys was just as good as any of those teams.

We had a dinged up Owens and had to play a very good team that we had already beaten twice that year.

I think we would have beaten any other NFC team we had faced ..... and I think if we had lost to the giants earlier in that year we would have won that Playoff game ..... its almost impossible to beat a team 3 times in a row.

(as a matter of fact ..... Chan Gaily's team had the same problem against the Cards in 1998, Which should have been another playoff win .... except we had to face the same team 3 times after beating them 2 in the regular season)

I actually PM'd another Jerry hater about that before the Giants game ...... let me see if I can find it.

I'm not a Jerry the owner hater, I'm a Jerry the GM hater. I hear you, and know where you are coming from, I just completely disagree with you. Don't think he is a good football man, and I have 13 years and waiting to prove it.

I don't think that even you can argue that Jerry would have had the same patience with a coach, or anyone else on his staff in a "product on the field" responsible position, to keep them in place for 13 years without a playoff win.

That is what I hate. Jerry the owner, I'm for. Jerry the GM, I hate.

 

[Rampage]

Huh?

You mean its easy to beat a good team 3 times in a row? You do remember that the Giants won the Superbowl that year right?

You really say some crazy stuff.

out of the times a team has had a chance to beat another team 3 times in one season, that feat has been accomplished more times than it hasn't. If you still don't get me ask Adam for the stats i believe it's been done 12 out of 18 or 19 chances. The Steelers did it to the Ravens last season.

 

[Four]

I'm not a Jerry the owner hater, I'm a Jerry the GM hater. I hear you, and know where you are coming from, I just completely disagree with you. Don't think he is a good football man, and I have 13 years and waiting to prove it.

I don't think that even you can argue that Jerry would have had the same patience with a coach, or anyone else on his staff in a "product on the field" responsible position, to keep them in place for 13 years without a playoff win.

That is what I hate. Jerry the owner, I'm for. Jerry the GM, I hate.

you think we win those three superbowls without jerry?

How many teams can say they were the dynasty of the 90s?

 

[bbgun]

you think we win those three superbowls without jerry?

How many teams can say they were the dynasty of the 90s?

Um, how long are we supposed to live off the fumes of those Super Bowls? Another decade or so? If you have to go that far back to make Jerry the GM look respectable, you have a problem.

 

[rcaldw]

you think we win those three superbowls without jerry?

How many teams can say they were the dynasty of the 90s?

I know we are all engaging each other at different times and in different threads, but sometimes it just feels like we keep repeating ourselves.

Ok, let me answer this.

NO. We don't win 3 Super Bowls without Jerry. PERIOD. No way, no how.

Why? Jerry the Owner.

Neither do we win 3 Super Bowls without Jimmy, if Jerry would have been "the football man". No way, no how.


I love Jerry the owner. I hate Jerry the GM.

Jerry the owner is great, why? HE LOVES the Cowboys, and he PASSIONATELY wants to win, and in a way that HE can participate in.

Jerry the GM has TO THIS POINT been a failure in my opinion. Why? HE MAKES DECISIONS WITH HIS HEART NOT HIS HEAD. And he will not make decisions that disenfranchise himself. He has not shown good judgment, without major input from others, when it comes to talent evaluation and the like. I know that all GM's get input, but if all you do is sign off on someone else's judgments, then you are not needed.

In other organizations the owner draws lines for the GM. There are no such lines in this organization. Who has the authority to tell Jerry no?

 

[rcaldw]

Um, how long are we supposed to live off the fumes of those Super Bowls? Another decade or so? If you have to go that far back to make Jerry the GM look respectable, you have a problem.

I'm with you 100% BB, but I think we are wasting our finger tips (typing ).

Honestly, I don't know how much longer it would take (and I hope we don't have to find out), before some of these folks would ever admit that Jerry needs to be out of the football on the field side of things.

 

[Idgit]

Um, we all want the Cowboys to experience playoff success, but what are we supposed to do/say when it doesn't happen year after year after year? Pretend it didn't happen? Not hold anyone accountable? Blame the so-called "mediots"? Disconnect our brains, wave our pom-poms, and naively "hope for the best"? The happy fans are just as annoying/obnoxious as the cynics, but only one group gets jumped.

News flash: short of not consuming the product, you're not in any position to hold anybody accountable. Expecting the worst doesn't make anyone account for anything. It's just a way for you to vent frustration or to avoid the pain of having expectations unmet. That's childishness masquerading as pragmatism. It's not a reason to be proud. Consider changing your avatar from Underdog to Droopy.

Blame the media? That's got nothing to do with expectations. The Dallas media gets blamed for being bad, not for being slanted.

Naively hoping for the best? Someday soon you'll have to explain to us what you think is naive about being hopeful. I assume what you really mean is having unrealistic expectations. If that's the case, then the debate surrounds what are the realistic possibilities for this team. My guess is that most objective assessments would be that it's a playoff-caliber squad. In which case someone will have to explain to me the wisdom of bemoaning the recent history of playoff futility instead of just enjoying the ride.

All things being equal, perhaps happy fans are as annoying as the clothes-renders. All things aren't equal, though. For one, this is a fan site, so it's reasonable to assume a majority of the people who come here to participate are going to be positively disposed to their team. Number two, the team happens to be competitive right now. Pumping sunshine in the middle of the Campo era makes no sense. Comparing 65 year old Vinny Testaverde to Troy Aikman makes no sense. This squad, however, has a chance to be really good. Our window of opportunity is now. Spare us your frustration that we prefer to see it as half-open.

 

[bbgun]

I'm with you 100% BB, but I think we are wasting our finger tips (typing ).

Honestly, I don't know how much longer it would take (and I hope we don't have to find out), before some of these folks would ever admit that Jerry needs to be out of the football on the field side of things.

Jerry wants to win. That much we all know. He just doesn't know how to.

 

[zrinkill]

I'm not a Jerry the owner hater, I'm a Jerry the GM hater. I hear you, and know where you are coming from, I just completely disagree with you. Don't think he is a good football man, and I have 13 years and waiting to prove it.

I don't think that even you can argue that Jerry would have had the same patience with a coach, or anyone else on his staff in a "product on the field" responsible position, to keep them in place for 13 years without a playoff win.

That is what I hate. Jerry the owner, I'm for. Jerry the GM, I hate.

Thats fine and I understand and even agree with that.

I think Jerry is above average in finding talent for this team.

I think his main failing as a GM is that he gives the appearance of undermining his coaches ..... in reality I do not think he does.

I think Jerry gets his way with his coaches the same way he gets his way in business ..... I think he talks all of them into what he wants to do.

Thats why I think Parcells agreed to Owens.

I do not think he demands or forces his coaches into anything.

If he could find another Jimmy ...... a guy he could work with and was a strong willed as he ..... I think he would have success again.

Hopefully Garrett is that guy ..... Or maybe its one of the coaches that are out of work right now.

I do not think its Wade ..... as much as I like him ..... I wish he would have been replaced ...... and thats GM Jerry thinking with his heart again.

As far as my qualities I think a good GM should have.

1. managing the cap - I think Jerry (or actually Stephan) is great at that now.

2. Finding and acquiring talent - I think Jerry is great at this.

3. Finding Great coaches - I think Jerry always has a talented staff.

4. Allowing the staff to do their job - This is where Jerry starts to have problems ...... he undermines the staff by allowing the perception that he is all the way in charge ..... I do not think its accurate .... but I think Jerry enjoys people to think it is.

5. Making hard personnel descisions - This is were Jerry usually fails .... though the off season house cleaning was impresive this year and seems to be signs that he learned from last years debacle. He seems to really feel to much for troubled players ..... I think it reminds him of his 90's squad and he truly wants to help these guys ..... unfortunately that is not the job of the GM of a football team.


Now that is my honest assessment.

 

[theogt]

Um, how long are we supposed to live off the fumes of those Super Bowls? Another decade or so? If you have to go that far back to make Jerry the GM look respectable, you have a problem.

Parcells is still living off two from the 80s. Shanahan and Holmgren from the 90s as well.

 

[zrinkill]

out of the times a team has had a chance to beat another team 3 times in one season, that feat has been accomplished more times than it hasn't. If you still don't get me ask Adam for the stats i believe it's been done 12 out of 18 or 19 chances. The Steelers did it to the Ravens last season.

NFC east teams play each other in the playoffs all the time .... I cannot remember it ever happening in this division.

 

[rcaldw]

Thats fine and I understand and even agree with that.

I think Jerry is above average in finding talent for this team.

I think his main failing as a GM is that he gives the appearance of undermining his coaches ..... in reality I do not think he does.

I think Jerry gets his way with his coaches the same way he gets his way in business ..... I think he talks all of them into what he wants to do.

Thats why I think Parcells agreed to Owens.

I do not think he demands or forces his coaches into anything.

If he could find another Jimmy ...... a guy he could work with and was a strong willed as he ..... I think he would have success again.

Hopefully Garrett is that guy ..... Or maybe its one of the coaches that are out of work right now.

I do not think its Wade ..... as much as I like him ..... I wish he would have been replaced ...... and thats GM Jerry thinking with his heart again.

As far as my qualities I think a good GM should have.

1. managing the cap - I think Jerry (or actually Stephan) is great at that now.

2. Finding and acquiring talent - I think Jerry is great at this.

3. Finding Great coaches - I think Jerry always has a talented staff.

4. Allowing the staff to do their job - This is where Jerry starts to have problems ...... he undermines the staff by allowing the perception that he is all the way in charge ..... I do not think its accurate .... but I think Jerry enjoys people to think it is.

5. Making hard personnel descisions - This is were Jerry usually fails .... though the off season house cleaning was impresive this year and seems to be signs that he learned from last years debacle. He seems to really feel to much for troubled players ..... I think it reminds him of his 90's squad and he truly wants to help these guys ..... unfortunately that is not the job of the GM of a football team.


Now that is my honest assessment.

You know what Zrin? I agree with most everything you have here. My only difference with you would be in "finding talent". If you mean he'll go get talent, I'm with you. If you mean a shrewd talent evaluator, I don't think Jerry is good at that.

 

[Idgit]

Parcells is still living off two from the 80s. Shanahan and Holmgren from the 90s as well.

And Jerry the GM was being mentioned as a GM of the Year candidate as far back as 2007. But if the team doesn't win a Superbowl, it's all the GMs fault, apparently.

Or was that the QB? I guess it depends on whether we're in a GM bashing-thread or a QB-bashing thread, doesn't it? Whatever's the most pragmatic target, I guess.