3-4 Base DEF now most popular in NFL

[thunderpimp91]

Isn't it about the ability as to whether the edge player can drop back or not. Can Garrett do this well? I doubt it hence he is not a fit in a 3-4. Lawrence struggled with this in Mike Nolan's scheme. My point being when drafted we gave up a 2nd for him, but teams like Steelers (3-4 scheme) would deem that price too high.
Goes back to my original post that I still believe a draft board/free agency list is constructed on what scheme is your base. Even when this is only used 20% of the time

DLaw literally just finished one of the best seasons of his career in a 3-4. Can Garrett drop out? Honestly I imagine he can...Not sure why you would want him to, but he could probably do it 2-5 times per game if needed. Hes an athletic freak who many profiled as a Julius Peppers comp coming out of college. Peppers played in both schemes pretty seamlessly. I doubt a 3-4 team in need of pass rush help would have passed on Garrett in the draft....similar to how the Chargers took Bosa in 2016 despite him being a more traditional 4-3 guy. Even a team like NO went out and got a traditional 4-3 guy in Chase Young. I think the lines between a 4-3 and 3-4 are so blurred right now teams are just finding players who can play.

With the 3-4 I think we over emphasize the pass rush ability from it. Its designed as a run stuffing defense. Can you come up with some exotic pass rush looks out of it? Sure....but on most passing downs you'll be in the nickel regardless. This will change if the league starts reverting back to heavy formations....which could happen if more teams start to adopt the Rams TE heavy sets and move away from 11 personnel.

We only had 5 edge players in the league that dropped 100+ times this past season which is only around 5 snaps per game despite the uptick in odd set teams around the league. Compare that to 2010 when you had 5 edge players with 200+ drops and over 20 players with 100+ coverage snaps. Its a different era for the 3-4 defense and its extremely rare to see the James Harrison type hybrid edge who bails out of there on the regular.

 

[CowboysFaninHouston]

Yep CFIH,
It's a symptom of having overdosed on watching Murray, Sanborn and friends last year so I am probably over compensating at linebacker, lol.

I haven't looked far enough at safety draft prospects past Downs so I can't give ya an inelligent alternative option just yet as Downs prolly goes before 12.

But yes I'm all aboard with Parker doing some form of hybrid/disguise with a bunch of multi tooled linebacker types.

I know, I'm dreaming most likely with these suggestions but Ima go big or go home kinda guy after witnessing the Pats do their worst to first demonstration this year.

Downs is defintley the top of the class in Safeties, a bit smallish, but super smart. decent speed. can play the slot (ala woodson) and can roam the deep. TEs may give him a bit of challgne.

I do like Warren from Toledo, a bit taller, little more range, but small school.

the guy from oregon is decent too, I think his name is thienman or something to that effect.

so we may not get any of the top 3, or 4, since we don't have 2nd and 3rd round picks. might have to do a trade down with the 20th pick, which I wouldn't mind and get some mid round picks. I would love to grab a safety, cb, LB with first three picks.

 

[gimmesix]

Sort of, but 48 snaps over the 15 games Watt played is around 3 snaps per game. Its just not a massive change whatsoever. I don't have the numbers but I would also bet that these are early down plays that guys like Watt are dropping out. Teams run odd fronts primarily to stop the run. When you get into nickel on 3rd and 9 everyone in the stadium knows TJ Watt is rushing the passer.

Agreed, but this is horrific thinking and what teams are starting to move away from. As mentioned above Watt, Garrett, and Parsons are all playing pretty similar alignments outside the tackle up on the LOS.


This is where I really disagree...but plenty of people think I'm wrong on the subject so I'm open to different arguments.
Andrew Van Ginkle is a 3-4 Edge player who is 6'4" 242lbs
Will Anderson is a 4-3 Edge player who is 6'3" 240lbs

For the bigger guys
Myles Garrett is a 4-3 edge listed at 6'4" 272lbs but you still have plenty of massive 3-4 edge players like Bradley Chubb 6'4" 275lbs and Joey Bosa at 6'5" 280lbs

Teams are taking guys of all shapes and sizes and implementing them into whatever scheme they have these days. The big reason why is that teams are 2 gap defenses more situationally than as base philosophies. Its why a Quinnen Williams fits just fine into either scheme.....hes going to be a B gap player he just may line up slightly wider in 4I than he would as a 4-3 3T. With 5 DB packages being the norm I just don't think teams are as hard lined on going after certain body types to fit the 4-3/3-4 molds. Instead they've just made odd front defenses that function similar to 4-3s.

The challenge is finding the prototype. It's kind of like drafting Eze last year. He falls to the second round partly because his size isn't the prototype. The knock on players like David Bailey this year is that he's a great pass rusher but teams can run at him because of his size.

One reason given in the past by those using the 3-4 was that it was easier to find players who fit it as OLBs than players that fit the 4-3 as DEs. I think that's still the same today. That doesn't mean smaller ends can't succeed in the 4-3, you're just asking a lot of them to take on OTs against the run and then not wear down like Parsons did.

Now, as you've said, they are going to spend most of their time as a four-linemen end because of how much teams play the nickel, but the 5-2 or 3-4 just allows the smaller ends to avoid some of the immediate contact that comes from lining up across from an OT in "run situations."

 

[jterrell]

DLaw literally just finished one of the best seasons of his career in a 3-4. Can Garrett drop out? Honestly I imagine he can...Not sure why you would want him to, but he could probably do it 2-5 times per game if needed. Hes an athletic freak who many profiled as a Julius Peppers comp coming out of college. Peppers played in both schemes pretty seamlessly. I doubt a 3-4 team in need of pass rush help would have passed on Garrett in the draft....similar to how the Chargers took Bosa in 2016 despite him being a more traditional 4-3 guy. Even a team like NO went out and got a traditional 4-3 guy in Chase Young. I think the lines between a 4-3 and 3-4 are so blurred right now teams are just finding players who can play.

With the 3-4 I think we over emphasize the pass rush ability from it. Its designed as a run stuffing defense. Can you come up with some exotic pass rush looks out of it? Sure....but on most passing downs you'll be in the nickel regardless. This will change if the league starts reverting back to heavy formations....which could happen if more teams start to adopt the Rams TE heavy sets and move away from 11 personnel.

We only had 5 edge players in the league that dropped 100+ times this past season which is only around 5 snaps per game despite the uptick in odd set teams around the league. Compare that to 2010 when you had 5 edge players with 200+ drops and over 20 players with 100+ coverage snaps. Its a different era for the 3-4 defense and its extremely rare to see the James Harrison type hybrid edge who bails out of there on the regular.

The 3-4 was designed as a pass rushing defense. It was deployed thusly and they got ran on so they added two interior LB who could stuff gaps and relied on strong DT play to hold up against the run.
Then it was discovered that two bulky interior LB made you too slow versus underneath passes. .

Now defenses move pre and post snap. It isn't 1990 anymore.
The Eagles won the SB last year with a 4 pass rush base using Wide-9 guys but they also played a ton of nose. And used a safety or nickel as that 7th guy in the box.
The best modern defenses have 6 guys that can rush the passer but bring 3-4-5 of that group varying by play.

We had a tremendous video by Cody Alexander shared here discussing modern defenses and more people watch that and read his books.
Even Saban and Belichick systems are outdated.

NFL offensive base now is 1 back, 1 TE. You don't cover that with 7 DL/LB guys up front.
And if you give a good NFL QB the same look every play then you really do not want to win.

 

[StarW]

I've done the maths, and with the Cowboys, Packers and Bills now moving to a 3-4 base there are now 18 teams in the same position with only 14 in a 4-3 base. Now before anyone posts nickel is the new base, let me make the following points:

1) The 'player type' in terms of measurables is different between the two
2) The coaching staff you need is different between the two.

Makes the draft and free agency very competitive. Fortunately it looks like we are putting the correct coaching staff together to make the switch and are ahead of the Packers and Bills in this respect.

Many on this forum have been calling for this change for several years and thank goodness it is finally happening. The only disappointment for me is no Micah. He would have been great. The Packers have been smart enough to see this and switch schemes as they have had the chance with their DEF Coordinator moving to Miami

I feel you on no Micah, but these days interior D-line play is more arguably the most important, and that's what we'll design the new defense around.

If we bring in a more balance EDGE that has 80% of Parson's pass-rush ability but is stout against the run, we'll probably be better off considering the upgraded depth at defensive tackle.

 

[thunderpimp91]

The challenge is finding the prototype. It's kind of like drafting Eze last year. He falls to the second round partly because his size isn't the prototype. The knock on players like David Bailey this year is that he's a great pass rusher but teams can run at him because of his size.

One reason given in the past by those using the 3-4 was that it was easier to find players who fit it as OLBs than players that fit the 4-3 as DEs. I think that's still the same today. That doesn't mean smaller ends can't succeed in the 4-3, you're just asking a lot of them to take on OTs against the run and then not wear down like Parsons did.

Now, as you've said, they are going to spend most of their time as a four-linemen end because of how much teams play the nickel, but the 5-2 or 3-4 just allows the smaller ends to avoid some of the immediate contact that comes from lining up across from an OT in "run situations."

Mostly agree. You make some fair points, I just dont see the overall schemes being that much different these days. I'll concede that the majority of sub 245lb edge players are on 3-4 rosters. I'm just saying its not a huge factor in player evaluations....or at least to the extent it used to be. The bulk of these undersized players are still mostly rotational pieces that total under 600 snaps a year regardless of the scheme.

Eze ended up going to a team who played a 4-3 at the time (that certainly changed as the year went on). Somehow every 3-4 team in the league passed on him, some twice. Meanwhile 3-4 teams were often targeting bigger edge players. DLaw went to a 3-4 in Seattle. Chase Young went to one in New Orleans. Arizona is a 3-4 with a 295lbs edge player in Jordan Burch. Meanwhile another 4-3 team invests big assets into Micah Parsons. Will Anderson might be on the cusp of being the best edge in football at 6'3" 243lbs in a 4-3 defense that drafted him #3 overall. If teams think a player can play they seem to be making moves for that player regardless of scheme fit. I think more teams are looking at how can we adapt our scheme to fit the players we want more than they are thinking about how they can fit the player into their scheme. Thats the ideology that younger coaches are bringing to the NFL IMO.

 

[speedkilz88]

The 3-4 was designed as a pass rushing defense. It was deployed thusly and they got ran on so they added two interior LB who could stuff gaps and relied on strong DT play to hold up against the run.
Then it was discovered that two bulky interior LB made you too slow versus underneath passes. .

Now defenses move pre and post snap. It isn't 1990 anymore.
The Eagles won the SB last year with a 4 pass rush base using Wide-9 guys but they also played a ton of nose. And used a safety or nickel as that 7th guy in the box.
The best modern defenses have 6 guys that can rush the passer but bring 3-4-5 of that group varying by play.

We had a tremendous video by Cody Alexander shared here discussing modern defenses and more people watch that and read his books.
Even Saban and Belichick systems are outdated.

NFL offensive base now is 1 back, 1 TE. You don't cover that with 7 DL/LB guys up front.
And if you give a good NFL QB the same look every play then you really do not want to win.

Orginally the 3-4 was created to stop the run. You can google that if you don't believe me.

 

[gimmesix]

Mostly agree. You make some fair points, I just dont see the overall schemes being that much different these days. I'll concede that the majority of sub 245lb edge players are on 3-4 rosters. I'm just saying its not a huge factor in player evaluations....or at least to the extent it used to be. The bulk of these undersized players are still mostly rotational pieces that total under 600 snaps a year regardless of the scheme.

Eze ended up going to a team who played a 4-3 at the time (that certainly changed as the year went on). Somehow every 3-4 team in the league passed on him, some twice. Meanwhile 3-4 teams were often targeting bigger edge players. DLaw went to a 3-4 in Seattle. Chase Young went to one in New Orleans. Arizona is a 3-4 with a 295lbs edge player in Jordan Burch. Meanwhile another 4-3 team invests big assets into Micah Parsons. Will Anderson might be on the cusp of being the best edge in football at 6'3" 243lbs in a 4-3 defense that drafted him #3 overall. If teams think a player can play they seem to be making moves for that player regardless of scheme fit. I think more teams are looking at how can we adapt our scheme to fit the players we want more than they are thinking about how they can fit the player into their scheme. Thats the ideology that younger coaches are bringing to the NFL IMO.

I don't think too many talented pass rushers get passed up for long even if they are undersized. Whatever scheme you are in, you've got to put pressure on the QB. Now, a smaller guy may have to have a more limited role in run defense, but some smaller guys outplay bigger ones in run defense because they know how to work off blocks and use leverage better.

I just think it benefits teams when they have 240- to 260-pound defensive linemen to make it harder to reach them and lean on them, especially in situations where a run is likely. The 3-4 does that by allowing the DEs to get more space between them and the tackles or get a running start from a standing position or draw a tight end instead of a tackle. You can do some of that with certain 4-3 sets as well (wide nine), but when the offensive line isn't having to dislodge or protect against those three big interior linemen, it's easier to target the OLBs/DEs, especially in a 4-3 set where you know who is trying to set the line of scrimmage instead of who might be backing off.

 

[tm1119]

This thread is made like every 2 weeks and having to read people discuss football like it’s still 1992 hurts my brain every time.

 

[IceStar-D7]

4-3 ...equals 5 SB trophy's

 

[jterrell]

Orginally the 3-4 was created to stop the run. You can google that if you don't believe me.

The Okie 5-2 defense Wilkerson created in the 40s was a run stop defense, yes.
While that is the genesis of the 3-4 it is not really the 3-4 people are familiar with today.
The non 5-2 versions have always been pass rush defenses that struggled versus the run unless they had elite players.
In fact, it was a big enough issue to drive it out of the league for all but Pittsburgh in the late 90s.

But Pittsburgh really took advantage by drafting all the best 3-4 LB and nose Tackles for cheap and it came back into vogue in time.

I played in a 4-4 defense in high school and college.

 

[jterrell]

read the Cody Alexander book.

Hybrids: The Making of a Modern Defense​

 

[Pass2Run]

From what I have read it'll almost be like a 3-3-5. The Cowboys will mix and match the five man fronts. Sometimes 3 DT's and 2 edge/LBs, sometimes 4 DL, a LB and a safety, and so on.

It's a 5 man front in terms of numbers but not necessarily 5 DL fronts. It's about being multiple and not static like Eberflus was.

Exactly.

And that's exactly what we need.