5 yards or 15?

[vicjagger]

NFL Digest of Rules

Summary of Penalties


5 Yards
19. Grasping facemask of the ball carrier or quarterback.

15 Yards
8. Twisting, turning, or pulling an opponent by the facemask.

Clear as mud, eh?

 

[THUMPER]

NFL Digest of Rules

Summary of Penalties


5 Yards
19. Grasping facemask of the ball carrier or quarterback.

15 Yards
8. Twisting, turning, or pulling an opponent by the facemask.

Clear as mud, eh?

It was a horrible call and pretty much gave them the win. I wish Kosier would have grabbed it and held on so that he would have gone down there instead of 25 yards further downfield. They would have been out of FG range even with the 15-yard penalty and we would have gone to OT.

That said we got away with stuff throughout the game and that call wasn't the reason why we lost.

 

[Doomsday101]

NFL Digest of Rules

Summary of Penalties


5 Yards
19. Grasping facemask of the ball carrier or quarterback.

15 Yards
8. Twisting, turning, or pulling an opponent by the facemask.

Clear as mud, eh?

It is a judgement call, I did feel our player reached out left his feet with facemask in hand. The players head jerked and the ref called it personal foul that just the way it is. I guess I look at it this way, if our guys do their damn job we make the kick and this play does not happen.

 

[AbeBeta]

Kosier shouldn't have let go. Period. The smart play there is just taking the 15.

 

[joseephuss]

It is a judgement call, I did feel our player reached out left his feet with facemask in hand. The players head jerked and the ref called it personal foul that just the way it is. I guess I look at it this way, if our guys do their damn job we make the kick and this play does not happen.

If they did their job, the game probably isn't as close and coming down to the last play of the game.

Looked like a 15 yarder to me. Taylor's head got turned or pulled around. The bad thing wasn't the penalty as much as no one tackled him even though he back tracked quite a bit on the play.

 

[2much2soon]

Kosier shouldn't have let go. Period. The smart play there is just taking the 15.

never thought of that but you are right.

 

[joseephuss]

Kosier shouldn't have let go. Period. The smart play there is just taking the 15.

I don't think he had a choice. His hands are taped up and his momentum was going away from Taylor. I think the face mask slipped out of his hand.

 

[Dale]

I know a lot hated this call but, I dunno, it looked like a 15-yard penalty to me. I didn't see it live and hadn't seen it until last night, but it didn't look questionable at all to me.

He touched the facemask and the guy's head turned as Kosier's hand was leaving the area. If I were a ref, I'd have called the 15 yards, as well.

 

[superpunk]

It's unfortunate that we allowed the game to come down to a judgment call, but we did - and it was absolutely the wrong call. I've never seen that called flagrant, ever. If the player immediately lets go, it's always five. Knee jerk call by the refs, who were terrible and have been terrible.

The only solution is playing better. Take the refs (who apparently are dying to be the focus) out of the game.

 

[Dale]

It's unfortunate that we allowed the game to come down to a judgment call, but we did - and it was absolutely the wrong call. I've never seen that called flagrant, ever. If the player immediately lets go, it's always five. Knee jerk call by the refs, who were terrible and have been terrible.

The only solution is playing better. Take the refs (who apparently are dying to be the focus) out of the game.

Well, the refs helped us at times, too. Wasn't Witten holding on that TD pass to Glenn?

I agree that Kosier's hand wasn't on Taylor's face mask for long. But Taylor's head still twisted. I think the rule pasted in this thread clearly illustrates that when the head turns like that, it's gonna be called 15.

 

[Doomsday101]

If they did their job, the game probably isn't as close and coming down to the last play of the game.

Looked like a 15 yarder to me. Taylor's head got turned or pulled around. The bad thing wasn't the penalty as much as no one tackled him even though he back tracked quite a bit on the play.

I agree with you. It was more than just that 1 play

 

[joseephuss]

It's unfortunate that we allowed the game to come down to a judgment call, but we did - and it was absolutely the wrong call. I've never seen that called flagrant, ever. If the player immediately lets go, it's always five. Knee jerk call by the refs, who were terrible and have been terrible.

The only solution is playing better. Take the refs (who apparently are dying to be the focus) out of the game.

I have seen that call made many times. I guess we watch different games. A bad call was the one against Keith Davis. He never grabbed the guys helmet, but the ref had a poor angle to see that and called what he thought he saw. Washington scored a TD on Portis' run on that series. It was a huge penalty.

 

[superpunk]

Well, the refs helped us at times, too. Wasn't Witten holding on that TD pass to Glenn?

I agree that Kosier's hand wasn't on Taylor's face mask for long. But Taylor's head still twisted. I think the rule pasted in this thread clearly illustrates that when the head turns like that, it's gonna be called 15.

There were holds not called both ways. They were allowing them to take down our OLBs all game long, no calls ever. Of course, there is the old adage, you can call holding on every play. That twist happens every time someone swipes a facemask. There's no way for it not to occur. The difference lies, most of the time, in how long the hand remains there.

 

[Doomsday101]

I have seen that call made many times. I guess we watch different games. A bad call was the one against Keith Davis. He never grabbed the guys helmet, but the ref had a poor angle to see that and called what he thought he saw. Washington scored a TD on Portis' run on that series. It was a huge penalty.

I agree on that I also felt the chop block called on Flo and Barber was a bit ticky tacky. The rule was set up so that while being engaged with a lineman another blocker could not come in and block low. Watching the play Flo was releasing the man and Barber came in and blocked the man low.

 

[superpunk]

I have seen that call made many times. I guess we watch different games. A bad call was the one against Keith Davis. He never grabbed the guys helmet, but the ref had a poor angle to see that and called what he thought he saw. Washington scored a TD on Portis' run on that series. It was a huge penalty.

Called, yes. For 15? Not so much. There was nothing egregious about that, and in real time, it lasts for milliseconds.

 

[Juke99]

Kosier shouldn't have let go. Period. The smart play there is just taking the 15.

Great point.

 

[coogrfan]

It is a judgement call, I did feel our player reached out left his feet with facemask in hand. The players head jerked and the ref called it personal foul that just the way it is. I guess I look at it this way, if our guys do their damn job we make the kick and this play does not happen.

Agreed. It's a judgement call, and Taylor's head did snap around. Nonetheless, I believe most NFL officials placed in that situation would have taken a page from the NBA refs handbook and swallowed their whistles on the last play of regulation, especially since the infraction happened at the beginning of the return (as opposed to the end).

 

[Cowboy4ever]

Well, the refs helped us at times, too. Wasn't Witten holding on that TD pass to Glenn?

I agree that Kosier's hand wasn't on Taylor's face mask for long. But Taylor's head still twisted. I think the rule pasted in this thread clearly illustrates that when the head turns like that, it's gonna be called 15.

Well I think it was a bad call. I think on a personal foul, you have to look at the intent of the player. In this case.. you had 2 players going in opposite directions very quickly,, one player reached out and his hand happened to hit the face mask,, which he quickly let go of.. there was no intent.. thus it should have been a 5 yd penalty.. that is why they inserted the 5 yd rule. Anytime you grab the face mask, the head turns, moves, or twist.. so every one of them could be called a 15 yder..

 

[superpunk]

Kosier shouldn't have let go. Period. The smart play there is just taking the 15.

You're right, but I think any player would have done the same. You can't make that decision split second. Kosier let go because he knew he was in violation. It's just unfortunate that it came down to that.

 

[joseephuss]

Called, yes. For 15? Not so much. There was nothing egregious about that, and in real time, it lasts for milliseconds.

Yes, for 15. Many times. In real time, Taylor's head twisting looked more violent than what it was and it was that motion that resulted in the 15 yard call. Will most every time at most every level of football.