A Look at the Current Depth Chart

[Chocolate Lab]

FWIW we had PLUS play for 10 games from Holland inside. Our INT play was no where nearly as bad as has been portrayed here. OC was very weak. But we ended up middle of the pack in OL rankings not bottom of the barrel.

Murray torched teams for weeks running between the tackles. But we want to look at out of work Sammy Morris and rookie RBs as legit indicators of our running game?

Or no, this is all about Romo right? Except many QBs were hit more, sacked more and injured to the point of missing games. Some of those QBs for teams with supposedly awesome OLs. SF allowed 3 more sacks than us even though they threw much less and have spent tons of high draft picks along the OL.

The Giants had 2 guys rate worse than us according to PFF. They won a Super Bowl.

They ended up 27th in advanced nfl stats win percentage metric to add another site and different metric.
http://wp.advancednflstats.com/teamOL.php?year=2011&season=reg

Totally agree. People are way overstating how "awful" our OL was. You'd think we had Campo's 2002 team's OL from the way some talk. I think some want to protect Garrett, some want an excuse to draft their pet DeCastro, and some have heard it said so often they simply repeat it without really looking at it.

 

[The30YardSlant]

Totally agree. People are way overstating how "awful" our OL was. You'd think we had Campo's 2002 team's OL from the way some talk. I think some want to protect Garrett, some want an excuse to draft their pet DeCastro, and some have heard it said so often they simply repeat it without really looking at it.

We had the worst interior offensive line in football, there's really no way one can overstate something like that. Our tackle play, specifically Smith, averaged out the line as a whole. Don't sell the interior guys short though, Costa graded out as the worst center in the league and Kosier was in the bottom quarter among all guards.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

We had the worst interior offensive line in football, there's really no way one can overstate something like that.

How do you seriously, objectively make that claim? The very worst in all of football?

I agree that we need a new center because Costa was terrible. But Holland was above average and Kosier was probably a little below average. I don't see that equating to "worst in football".

Add a decent center and two average guards and we should have an above average OL at worst.

The key point is that more than any other group, the OL is about smart, tough players who play well together. It's not about collecting individual talents like some other position groups.

Now you do need a top LT because he's on an island so much, but we have that.

 

[The30YardSlant]

How do you seriously, objectively make that claim? The very worst in all of football?

It's hardly a stretch. We had, unanimously, the worst starting center in football last year. Between the people who keep track of linemen and graded him out as by far the worst to the NFL analysts who called him the worst to the numerous knowledgeable posters here who called him the worst, it is pretty well established that he was THAT bad. He was at times a caricature of NFL linemen and I found myself wondering if our coaches were serious or just playing a cruel joke on the fans. Frankly, he's the worst center I've ever seen at this level. His ineptitude can simply not be overstated.

That is a huge part of it. Kosier is another, his age and past injuries finally caught up to him and an average player who has been overated here for a while saw the game clearly pass him by. At his absolute best last year he may have qualified as "average" every now and then.

The rotation at left guard for part of the year was a mess, and frankly the only player who registered as anything more than a speed bump along the entire interior line all season was Montre Holland. Montre-freakin-Holland was our best interior linemen and he only started 10 games.

I agree that we need a new center because Costa was terrible. But Holland was above average and Kosier was probably a little below average. I don't see that equating to "worst in football".

Look at it like this: Tyron Smith was, according to people who keep track of such things, a top 5 tackle in football last year. For all of Free's struggles, he was still in the top half among left tackles.

So we had one tackle who played at an elite level most of the season and another who still qualified as "above average". Not many teams had a higher rated tackle combo...and yet our overall line ranking still fell in the middle of the pack and that's with Holland having a decent year. This tells us something, that the interior line, specifically Kosier and Costa, was so bad that it dropped our overall line rating dramatically.

 

[jterrell]

It's hardly a stretch. We had, unanimously, the worst starting center in football last year. Between the people who keep track of linemen and graded him out as by far the worst to the NFL analysts who called him the worst to the numerous knowledgeable posters here who called him the worst, it is pretty well established that he was THAT bad. He was at times a caricature of NFL linemen and I found myself wondering if our coaches were serious or just playing a cruel joke on the fans. Frankly, he's the worst center I've ever seen at this level. His ineptitude can simply not be overstated.

That is a huge part of it. Kosier is another, his age and past injuries finally caught up to him and an average player who has been overated here for a while saw the game clearly pass him by. At his absolute best last year he may have qualified as "average" every now and then.

The rotation at left guard for part of the year was a mess, and frankly the only player who registered as anything more than a speed bump along the entire interior line all season was Montre Holland. Montre-freakin-Holland was our best interior linemen and he only started 10 games.



Look at it like this: Tyron Smith was, according to people who keep track of such things, a top 5 tackle in football last year. For all of Free's struggles, he was still in the top half among left tackles.

So we had one tackle who played at an elite level most of the season and another who still qualified as "above average". Not many teams had a higher rated tackle combo...and yet our overall line ranking still fell in the middle of the pack and that's with Holland having a decent year. This tells us something, that the interior line, specifically Kosier and Costa, was so bad that it dropped our overall line rating dramatically.

ROFL. You keep repeating things as if writing them down makes it true.
If you want to use sourced material quote it or link it instead of this weak paraphrasing. The data is out there easily.

Free and Smith both gave up 6 sacks a piece. Out of 39 total sacks they had 12. That leaves 27 for the int OL as a group. Amazingly that averages out to 9 per position. That means our INT on average allowed 1.5 as many sacks as our OTs. That is not bottom of the league stuff. You had teams with over 50 sacks allowed. They averaged more than 10 per position.

So pass protection wise Dallas graded out about 13th. This is according to football outsiders http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol , PFF and advanced football stats. I have linked all 3 sources now.


Oh wait, it is about the running game perhaps? Nope. Dallas ranks higher as run blocking OL. See link above. The Dallas OL who rather sucked at power blocking(23rd) was excellent at the 2nd level(8th) and in the open field(9th) on things like screens. And with Felix and DeMarco both healthy we had one of the best running games in all of football.

But its all about the tackles right? NOPE. Dallas ranked 9th in rushing metrics up the middle and the low score was actually off Right Tackle (29th).

This data is from people who break down each play.

But you want to TELL me nonsense with zero factual info.

BTW, PFF called Doug Free our WORST OL!

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/


Worst Player: What happened to Doug Free (-11.9)? He looked tremendous in 2010, but really struggled with speed off the edge this year.

 

[cowboysooner]

PFF really overrates penalties.

Our interior did not give up close to 9 each. Some sacks are on the backs, tight ends and even the quarterback who can run into a defender. I think we are clearly going to more of a zone blocking scheme. In a zone scheme, you are not going to overpay for guards.

Houston by nearly any measure was the best zone offensive line in football last year. They were assembled as a bunch of midround picks, castoffs and UDFA's, plus a 1st round left tackle.

They got a hometown discount and got their center for $4mm per and decided to let their best guard go to Oakland who has no cap money and let a right tackle go that was making 5.6 million. Most people (including me) think they were short sighted moves but they think they have depth there with their next batch of low cost linemen in the pipeline. They did it because bad cap management and lots of guys can play guard in a zone scheme and no one in the NFL pays much for them.

 

[fortdick]

Totally agree. People are way overstating how "awful" our OL was. You'd think we had Campo's 2002 team's OL from the way some talk. I think some want to protect Garrett, some want an excuse to draft their pet DeCastro, and some have heard it said so often they simply repeat it without really looking at it.

Some folks are overstating how bad our DL was to promote their pet(s). It is a matter of opinion and perspective.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Some folks are overstating how bad our DL was to promote their pet(s). It is a matter of opinion and perspective.

Not me. I don't have any draft pets.

 

[ShiningStar]

Not me. I don't have any draft pets.

than its a matter of what you feel needs strengthened, i personally want that line looking better and i feel Rob can get more out of the D with a few patches and an offseason.

 

[cowboysooner]

The stuff that needs fixed on offense is cheap and easy to find...center, guard (which we may have already fixed), 3rd wr, backup tight end who can block.

The stuff that needs fixed on defense is expensive and hard to find... pass rusher opposite Ware, dominant 5 technique, coverage free safety with hands and a corner if Jenkins shoulder is a chronic injury and/or I don't want to resign Jenkins.

For me it is not about pet cats or anything but for your salary cap to work you need some cheap labor at expensive positions. On this team, we have 1 year of Jenkins, Dez and Tyron and that is all. Murray may be cheap relative to his value as is Lee, but unless they are Adrian Peterson or Patrick Willis those are usually not expensive positions.

A cheap Spencer or another cheap Jenkins or a cheap difference maker on the defensive line would make our team better than the stuff on offense because it is the same as adding 5-7 million of cap space to our roster. A cheaper just as good version of Free at right tackle would make some sense too in the long run. That is why Cordy Glenn has some appeal despite being a better man scheme guard.

 

[CCBoy]

PFF really overrates penalties.

Our interior did not give up close to 9 each. Some sacks are on the backs, tight ends and even the quarterback who can run into a defender. I think we are clearly going to more of a zone blocking scheme. In a zone scheme, you are not going to overpay for guards.

Houston by nearly any measure was the best zone offensive line in football last year. They were assembled as a bunch of midround picks, castoffs and UDFA's, plus a 1st round left tackle.

They got a hometown discount and got their center for $4mm per and decided to let their best guard go to Oakland who has no cap money and let a right tackle go that was making 5.6 million. Most people (including me) think they were short sighted moves but they think they have depth there with their next batch of low cost linemen in the pipeline. They did it because bad cap management and lots of guys can play guard in a zone scheme and no one in the NFL pays much for them.

In value, one always merits accomplishment most...but when metering out the negative aspects, even a five yard penalty is worse than a missed block that nets ZERO yards gained.

 

[CCBoy]

The stuff that needs fixed on offense is cheap and easy to find...center, guard (which we may have already fixed), 3rd wr, backup tight end who can block.

The stuff that needs fixed on defense is expensive and hard to find... pass rusher opposite Ware, dominant 5 technique, coverage free safety with hands and a corner if Jenkins shoulder is a chronic injury and/or I don't want to resign Jenkins.

For me it is not about pet cats or anything but for your salary cap to work you need some cheap labor at expensive positions. On this team, we have 1 year of Jenkins, Dez and Tyron and that is all. Murray may be cheap relative to his value as is Lee, but unless they are Adrian Peterson or Patrick Willis those are usually not expensive positions.

A cheap Spencer or another cheap Jenkins or a cheap difference maker on the defensive line would make our team better than the stuff on offense because it is the same as adding 5-7 million of cap space to our roster. A cheaper just as good version of Free at right tackle would make some sense too in the long run. That is why Cordy Glenn has some appeal despite being a better man scheme guard.

The team still has faith in Doug Free, but your point as to direction and dual use for Cordy Glenn is a good one.

As to the secondary, both a real prospect at both safety and corner are needed on the roster for this upcoming season.

 

[CCBoy]

ROFL. You keep repeating things as if writing them down makes it true.
If you want to use sourced material quote it or link it instead of this weak paraphrasing. The data is out there easily.

Free and Smith both gave up 6 sacks a piece. Out of 39 total sacks they had 12. That leaves 27 for the int OL as a group. Amazingly that averages out to 9 per position. That means our INT on average allowed 1.5 as many sacks as our OTs. That is not bottom of the league stuff. You had teams with over 50 sacks allowed. They averaged more than 10 per position.

So pass protection wise Dallas graded out about 13th. This is according to football outsiders http://footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol , PFF and advanced football stats. I have linked all 3 sources now.


Oh wait, it is about the running game perhaps? Nope. Dallas ranks higher as run blocking OL. See link above. The Dallas OL who rather sucked at power blocking(23rd) was excellent at the 2nd level(8th) and in the open field(9th) on things like screens. And with Felix and DeMarco both healthy we had one of the best running games in all of football.

But its all about the tackles right? NOPE. Dallas ranked 9th in rushing metrics up the middle and the low score was actually off Right Tackle (29th).

This data is from people who break down each play.

But you want to TELL me nonsense with zero factual info.

BTW, PFF called Doug Free our WORST OL!

http://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/2012/02/23/ranking-the-2011-offensive-lines-part-2/


Worst Player: What happened to Doug Free (-11.9)? He looked tremendous in 2010, but really struggled with speed off the edge this year.

Actually, a pretty good argument presented here...

 

[fortdick]

Not me. I don't have any draft pets.

Not true, you have advocated for Cox for quite a while. Your desire to draft him shows what you think needs to be fixed, and by whom. Nothing wrong with that, it is just perspective and opinion.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Not true, you have advocated for Cox for quite a while. Your desire to draft him shows what you think needs to be fixed, and by whom. Nothing wrong with that, it is just perspective and opinion.

Wrong. He's my preference right now, but I'm not comparing him to a HOF, not predicting x number of Pro Bowls, not saying we *have* to take him, or any of that.

I don't care much who we get as long as he turns out to be a very good player who helps the team. That's different from being fixated on one player.

 

[cowboysooner]

In value, one always merits accomplishment most...but when metering out the negative aspects, even a five yard penalty is worse than a missed block that nets ZERO yards gained.

Not really because you still retain the down when you get a penalty, especially when it is the 5 yard variety. For example, a false start on 3rd and 2 is bad but it is worse to let the running back get tackled in the backfield. This is especially true with league wide completion percentages above 60% and ypa of more than 7 or 8 yards. In a passing league, I would much rather have the down than the yardage with all things being equal.

After all Edwin Moses Hynoski is only a flare pass away on 3rd and 7.

 

[fortdick]

Wrong. He's my preference right now, but I'm not comparing him to a HOF, not predicting x number of Pro Bowls, not saying we *have* to take him, or any of that.

I don't care much who we get as long as he turns out to be a very good player who helps the team. That's different from being fixated on one player.

But your preference is defense, and you like Cox. Many of us see the need on offense, and like DeCosta. That doesn't mean we are wrong, just different. Your original claim:

Totally agree. People are way overstating how "awful" our OL was. You'd think we had Campo's 2002 team's OL from the way some talk. I think some want to protect Garrett, some want an excuse to draft their pet DeCastro, and some have heard it said so often they simply repeat it without really looking at it.

You are claiming that those of us that believe offense is the biggest need are mindless parrots repeating back what we have heard. You are placing your opinion high above ours. That being the case, I pointed out that you have advocated for Cox. Looking back at your posts, you have been pretty consistent about that.

I can assume that you are saying that DeCastro would not be a very good player and would not help out the team, based on all you have said.

I disagree.

 

[cowboysooner]

But your preference is defense, and you like Cox. Many of us see the need on offense, and like DeCosta. That doesn't mean we are wrong, just different. Your original claim:



You are claiming that those of us that believe offense is the biggest need are mindless parrots repeating back what we have heard. You are placing your opinion high above ours. That being the case, I pointed out that you have advocated for Cox. Looking back at your posts, you have been pretty consistent about that.

I can assume that you are saying that DeCastro would not be a very good player and would not help out the team, based on all you have said.

I disagree.

I like DeCastro. I love DeCastro, but in a salary cap world a right guard at 14 is a luxury pick if you need a cheap corner, passrusher, defensive lineman, receiver or tackle.

It is the same reason Luke Kuechly will slip past 10 despite being the safest, best inside linebacker in 5 years. There won't be more than 4 non pass rush linebackers taken in the 1st 2 rounds. The reason is Steven Tulloch and Curtis Lofton only cost $5million on the open market and you can trade a pack of gum and get Demeco Ryans.

Philly needs more linebackers like Ron Mexico needs an std test, and they have no interest in getting one in the 1st round at the expense of getting a defensive tackle.

 

[Chocolate Lab]

Huh? I never said any of that. I don't think offense is necessarily our biggest need, but that doesn't mean I'd hate an offensive player. I also never said Decastro would be a bad player -- never.

I have said I seriously doubt he's the next Larry Allen or is guaranteed to be a great player for the next decade like many have claimed. I've also said I don't think OG is a relatively high-value position and it's not necessary to spend a top-15 pick on one in order to have a very good OL.

As for putting my opinion above yours, how ridiculous. I'm giving my opinion. You're giving yours. Does the fact that you love Decastro mean you're somehow elevating your above mine or anyone else's? Of course not.

Good grief.

 

[fanfromvirginia]

Philly needs more linebackers like Ron Mexico needs an std test, and they have no interest in getting one in the 1st round at the expense of getting a defensive tackle.

Wait...does this mean they do or don't need LBs? Because I'm thinking Ron Mexico can't get enough STD tests.