A number of 1st/2nd round picks were active on Sunday except Trysten Hill

[Future]

3rd highest among safeties with 70+ preseason snaps? Who is he being compared to, Jameill Showers? lol

 

[xwalker]

Yeah X, not buying that at all. Thornhill can play either spot.

And "Star of camp" wins you nothing.

I'll simplify for you:
Thornhill > Heath

Thornhill possibly > Woods

Thornhill absolutely > Trysten Hill

It does not work that way (extreme over-simplification).

Thornhill being better than Heath is not the question. That would be pure need based drafting.

DL is a higher value position than Safety. Just look at the contracts or Franchise Values for each position. Look at how many DL are drafted in the top 10 every year vs how many Safeties are drafted top 10.

At any given pick the best available Safety is generally going to be a better Safety than the best available DL is as a DLinemen.

For years the Cowboys didn't draft OLinemen early because their rating on OLinemen relative to other positions meant the the OL on their board were always gone by the time the draft got to the round where the Cowboys had those OL rated. Once they draft Tyron they changed how they rank OL on their draft board relative to other positions.

Even the Thornhill vs X.Woods is not a good decision criteria. What is next year there is an OG better than Connor Williams or Connor McGovern in the 1st round and the Cowboys have that player rated as 0.001% better than a Super Awesome Safety that is also available? Should they draft the OG because he is better than CW/CM ?

There were 2 other Safeties draft after Hill but before Thornhill. It was not a slam dunk that Thornhill was super-mega-awesome.

In the 2018 draft I said that the only real difference in Michel Gallup and Calvin Ridley in terms of NFL upside was that Ridley was a year ahead of Gallup (Ridley played 3 college seasons, Gallup played 2. Ridley was about 1.5 years older).

Bottom Line
To get a DT with Hill's measurable(s) and high-motor and without drug or criminal issues, the Cowboys either need to draft that player in the 1st round (probably early to mid 1st) or they can draft a player that needs further development in the late 2nd round.

Hill had just turned 21 right before the draft.

 

[Kaiser]

Bottom Line
To get a DT with Hill's measurable(s) and high-motor and without drug or criminal issues, the Cowboys either need to draft that player in the 1st round (probably early to mid 1st) or they can draft a player that needs further development in the late 2nd round.

Hill had just turned 21 right before the draft.

I'm old enough to remember when this board was all about calling the front office idiots for not drafting BPA and reaching for need picks.

I guess we have evolved into calling them idiots for not drafting need picks.

 

[Toruk_Makto]

I think it's more about the front office and coaching staff. I don't remember too many that were fond of the pick to begin with myself included.

That's just because everyone wanted a safety. I knew then that Hill would have a hard time winning hearts and minds.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I looked up rookie performances this morning of every 1st and 2nd round picks from the 2019 draft. Surprisingly for a supposedly "weak draft" there were a lot of rookies starting in Week 1. Trysten Hill was the first pick I got to that was inactive on Sunday. Every other 1st/2nd round pick that was healthy made their team's gameday roster in Week 1. Wow....

And we dont even have good DT's in front of him.

 

[CowboyRoy]

Just goes to show the defensive line may be pretty deep when a first and second round pick is sitting on game day....

Its just he opposite, however.

 

[Batman1980]

Yeah I never wanted another 3T when we already have a walking personal foul in Maliek Collins there.

 

[CowboyRoy]

I swear you people will never learn your lesson on counting out rookies and other young players too early.

Eventually you'll be right on a player... But my God do you look stupid along the way.

Speak for yourself.

 

[John813]

It does not work that way (extreme over-simplification).

Thornhill being better than Heath is not the question. That would be pure need based drafting.

DL is a higher value position than Safety. Just look at the contracts or Franchise Values for each position. Look at how many DL are drafted in the top 10 every year vs how many Safeties are drafted top 10.

At any given pick the best available Safety is generally going to be a better Safety than the best available DL is as a DLinemen.

For years the Cowboys didn't draft OLinemen early because their rating on OLinemen relative to other positions meant the the OL on their board were always gone by the time the draft got to the round where the Cowboys had those OL rated. Once they draft Tyron they changed how they rank OL on their draft board relative to other positions.

Even the Thornhill vs X.Woods is not a good decision criteria. What is next year there is an OG better than Connor Williams or Connor McGovern in the 1st round and the Cowboys have that player rated as 0.001% better than a Super Awesome Safety that is also available? Should they draft the OG because he is better than CW/CM ?

There were 2 other Safeties draft after Hill but before Thornhill. It was not a slam dunk that Thornhill was super-mega-awesome.

In the 2018 draft I said that the only real difference in Michel Gallup and Calvin Ridley in terms of NFL upside was that Ridley was a year ahead of Gallup (Ridley played 3 college seasons, Gallup played 2. Ridley was about 1.5 years older).

Bottom Line
To get a DT with Hill's measurable(s) and high-motor and without drug or criminal issues, the Cowboys either need to draft that player in the 1st round (probably early to mid 1st) or they can draft a player that needs further development in the late 2nd round.

Hill had just turned 21 right before the draft.

Cowboys still value SPARQ-y players last I read and Hill scored a 123.7, or a 81.7% rating compared to NFL DT's.
Only guys who had higher scores than him that went to combine/were notable prospects were Ed Oliver, Jerry Tillery and Quinnen Williams. Like you said, guys who went in the first round.

So, I agree in that his raw talents showed he could be quite a force if he can put all the tools in the toolbox correctly.

 

[America's Cowboy]

I swear you people will never learn your lesson on counting out rookies and other young players too early.

Eventually you'll be right on a player... But my God do you look stupid along the way.

If one eventually turns out to be right, how can they look stupid along the way? Looks like the deniers are the ones who eventually do look....

 

[Corso]

What can we say? The Cowboys can't draft, apparently.

 

[Plankton]

I'm old enough to remember when this board was all about calling the front office idiots for not drafting BPA and reaching for need picks.

I guess we have evolved into calling them idiots for not drafting need picks.

I think you're off in this case. I don't think that there is anyone who is being honest that believes that Trysten Hill was the best player available at #58.

 

[Hennessy_King]

That's just because everyone wanted a safety. I knew then that Hill would have a hard time winning hearts and minds.

Not just any safety. The safeties left were also big value picks. Rapp and thornhill were graded top of the 2nd round players. I believe both were in a lot of top 50 player mocks and grades. So to get them at a position of need and value was a layup pick.

 

[Corso]

Not just any safety. The safeties left were also big value picks. Rapp and thornhill were graded top of the 2nd round players. I believe both were in a lot of top 50 player mocks and grades. So to get them at a position of need and value was a layup pick.

Marinelli roars like a lion in your face and there's nothing you can do about it!
Rowr!
Lol.
Old man needs to be put in a Home. I'll spoon feed him applesauce, if that's what it takes.

 

[Hennessy_King]

Marinelli roars like a lion in your face and there's nothing you can do about it!
Rowr!
Lol.
Old man needs to be put in a Home. I'll spoon feed him applesauce, if that's what it takes.

It's so irritating to watch this guy waste DL talent. We aren't allowed to sign anyone worthwhile. Then we have to watch crawford go out there and get mauled by tight ends. It's whatever defense will be the reason we will get ousted from the playoffs again like every other year he's been here.

 

[xwalker]

Cowboys still value SPARQ-y players last I read and Hill scored a 123.7, or a 81.7% rating compared to NFL DT's.
Only guys who had higher scores than him that went to combine/were notable prospects were Ed Oliver, Jerry Tillery and Quinnen Williams. Like you said, guys who went in the first round.

So, I agree in that his raw talents showed he could be quite a force if he can put all the tools in the toolbox correctly.

I studied all of his snaps in the preseason games.

He was better than most people claim, but he was obviously not consistent and does have some awkwardness about him.

In my opinion they could play him now and he would be at least as good as Daniel Ross was in 2018 and probably better after a few games.

The two main issues I saw with Hill in the preseason games:

• 1. Playing against Zone Blocking.
  • Both the Rams and 49ers Zone Blocking teams.
  • DL can get caught out of position against Zone Blocking and look really silly.

• 2. Hesitation as a pass rusher
  • His mentality is to play the run.
  • His first two years in college they coached him to play the run.
  • In his final college season with the new coaching staff, they wanted him to focus on pass rushing more.
    • He was slow to adapt and still had a tendency to stay back looking for a delayed run.

Side Note:
In the AAC championship game against Memphis (Tony Pollard's team), Memphis scored 41 points but only 10 on drives when Hill was on defense for UCF and the 1 TD was after UCF's offense had turned the ball over putting Memphis down near the redzone to start the drive.

 

[Corso]

I studied all of his snaps in the preseason games.

He was better than most people claim, but he was obviously not consistent and does have some awkwardness about him.

In my opinion they could play him now and he would be at least as good as Daniel Ross was in 2018 and probably better after a few games.

The two main issues I saw with Hill in the preseason games:

• 1. Playing against Zone Blocking.
  • Both the Rams and 49ers Zone Blocking teams.
  • DL can get caught out of position against Zone Blocking and look really silly.

• 2. Hesitation as a pass rusher
  • His mentality is to play the run.
  • His first two years in college they coached him to play the run.
  • In his final college season with the new coaching staff, they wanted him to focus on pass rushing more.
    • He was slow to adapt and still had a tendency to stay back looking for a delayed run.

Side Note:
In the AAC championship game against Memphis (Tony Pollard's team), Memphis scored 41 points but only 10 on drives when Hill was on defense for UCF and the 1 TD was after UCF's offense had turned the ball over putting Memphis down near the redzone to start the drive.

Already in mid-season form, I see.
Me likey X!

 

[John813]

I studied all of his snaps in the preseason games.

He was better than most people claim, but he was obviously not consistent and does have some awkwardness about him.

In my opinion they could play him now and he would be at least as good as Daniel Ross was in 2018 and probably better after a few games.

The two main issues I saw with Hill in the preseason games:

• 1. Playing against Zone Blocking.
  • Both the Rams and 49ers Zone Blocking teams.
  • DL can get caught out of position against Zone Blocking and look really silly.

• 2. Hesitation as a pass rusher
  • His mentality is to play the run.
  • His first two years in college they coached him to play the run.
  • In his final college season with the new coaching staff, they wanted him to focus on pass rushing more.
    • He was slow to adapt and still had a tendency to stay back looking for a delayed run.

Side Note:
In the AAC championship game against Memphis (Tony Pollard's team), Memphis scored 41 points but only 10 on drives when Hill was on defense for UCF and the 1 TD was after UCF's offense had turned the ball over putting Memphis down near the redzone to start the drive.

What's your solution to the zone blocking issue? I remember you posting that the big DT's died out from the zone blocking scheme but obviously Hill has some athletic talent to him. Is it better anchoring? Hand work, footwork etc.
Just curious.

 

[xwalker]

What's your solution to the zone blocking issue? I remember you posting that the big DT's died out from the zone blocking scheme but obviously Hill has some athletic talent to him. Is it better anchoring? Hand work, footwork etc.
Just curious.

Good recall about the Zone Blocking and Tub of Lard DTs.


For Hill it's just practice reps and coaching.

Much of it is timing and body positioning as well as quick recognition of what type of play the offense is running.

Sometimes it is as simple as the DL expecting to be blocked by the OG but instead being blocked by the OC or OT.

The angle is obviously much different depending on which blocker engages the DL first.

Offenses that are good at Zone and Power (man) blocking are difficult for DLinemen.

Back in 2014 I remember the Cowboys often running Zone left over and over and then at some point they would come back with Power right and the DL would be cheating to the offensive left side and then look silly when the Cowboys blasted them with straight ahead power to the right.

Hill did improve a bit just over the span of the preseason games with regards to playing against Zone Blocking.

The big big difference between Hill and someone like Taco is that Hill is a very "high motor" player. He played the most snaps of anyone in the ps games on defense and he kept hustling from start to finish. He was known for being a high motor player in college.

 

[Verdict]

I looked up rookie performances this morning of every 1st and 2nd round picks from the 2019 draft. Surprisingly for a supposedly "weak draft" there were a lot of rookies starting in Week 1. Trysten Hill was the first pick I got to that was inactive on Sunday. Every other 1st/2nd round pick that was healthy made their team's gameday roster in Week 1. Wow....

I have been told there is nothing to see here. Lol. The fact he can’t get active on game day on arguably one of the weaker parts of this roster tells you all you need to know, at least for the time being.