About the 3-4

[thescarface1989]

Was the 3-4 defense used in the 70's?
When was it originally started?

 

[sago1]

I believe the Steelers have always used the 3-4 and Parcells' Giants used it in the late 80s but don't know its original origins. Sorry can't be of more help.

 

[ZeroClub]

I believe the Steelers have always used the 3-4 and Parcells' Giants used it in the late 80s but don't know its original origins. Sorry can't be of more help.

The Steel Curtain of the 1970's was a 4-3 (up front were Joe Greene, Dwight White, Ernie Holmes, and L.C. Greenwood).

 

[MONT17]

many teams in the old AFL used the 3-4 because they didnt have the players to run a 4-3!

that was not a google... that was an NFL films response!!! I recall the 9ers ran the 3-4 in the 80s as well with guys like HALEY playing what they called the Elephant!!!

 

[HTownCowboysFan]

Was the 3-4 defense used in the 70's?
When was it originally started?

The "3-5" is basically a "50"/odd front defense that was developed to shut down option defenses back in the 60s. The only difference and how it's evolved is that what are now outside LB's, were true DE's in a "50."

It's actually become quite en vogue among many HS teams again because they have the athletes to play true 3-5 outside LBs.

 

[HDC]

Today's 3-4 is not much different from the 5-2 of the 50s. In the 5-2 the two DEs often played without putting a hand down; they had DE and RB coverage responsibilities, and sometimes blitzed just like the OLBs in a 4-3.

To me there are ODD defenses (with NG on C and both OGs uncovered) and EVEN defenses (with the C uncovered and a DT on each OG). Then, the only question is how many in the box. In the 50's and 60's there were often 8 or 9 in the box (6-2, 5-3, 5-4) unless the opponent was especially good in the passing game. Remember there was no "illegal contact" then, the QB and receiver had no special protection "when defenseless," and "pass interference" was called only rarely. So, the 5-2 was used in passing situations. The 5-3 and 5-4 were run stopping defenses, especially the 5-4 against the Oklahoma option.

 

[Rack]

The dolphins were the first team to ever use the 3-4.

They had some guy that was too small to play end, but was a pretty good pass rusher. Couldn't play with his hand on the ground so they stood him up.

I guess you could say he was the first "tweener".


I think he last name was Matthews but I'm not positive.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

The dolphins were the first team to ever use the 3-4.

They had some guy that was too small to play end, but was a pretty good pass rusher. Couldn't play with his hand on the ground so they stood him up.

I guess you could say he was the first "tweener".


I think he last name was Matthews but I'm not positive.

Huh? Miami?


Actually the Houston Oilers (approximately 1974) and then the New England Pats were the first true "3-4" teams. The Oilers had acquired Curly Culp and found him to be the perfect nose guard... yeah back then they were called "nose guards".

Curly Culp was about 6' feet tall and about 270lbs-- and strong as an ox. And back then he was the perfect guy to play the nose.

 

[dwmyers]

Was the 3-4 defense used in the 70's?
When was it originally started?

Bum Phillips used the 3-4 as his base defense with the Houston Oilers during the 1970s, yes. Chuck Fairbanks may have used some 3-4 when he was with the Patriots in that time period, but I think "Bum" was the first to use the 3-4 as his main defense.

As HDC has stated, there is very little difference between the 3-4 and the 5-2 defense used by Bud Wilkinson, among others, in the 1950s. The 3-4/5-2 defense was a common high school system in the 70s; I know, because my high school switched to it from a 4-3 when I was there.

In effect, the only difference between a 3-4 and a 5-2 is what you call the outside elements of the line and what their responsibilities are. In a 3-4 they're called outside linebackers and they will have some pass coverage responsibility. In a 5-2, you call them defensive ends and depending on the system they may or may not have pass coverage responsibility.

The "flex" end in Miami's 53 was Bob Matheson. The defense was named for his jersey number.

 

[Rack]

Huh? Miami?


Actually the Houston Oilers (approximately 1974) and then the New England Pats were the first true "3-4" teams. The Oilers had acquired Curly Culp and found him to be the perfect nose guard... yeah back then they were called "nose guards".

Curly Culp was about 6' feet tall and about 270lbs-- and strong as an ox. And back then he was the perfect guy to play the nose.

Yep, Miami.

Someone posted an article about here a year ago or so. It was definitely Miami.

 

[Rack]

Bum Phillips used the 3-4 as his base defense with the Houston Oilers during the 1970s, yes. Chuck Fairbanks may have used some 3-4 when he was with the Patriots in that time period, but I think "Bum" was the first to use the 3-4 as his main defense.

As HDC has stated, there is very little difference between the 3-4 and the 5-2 defense used by Bud Wilkinson, among others, in the 1950s. The 3-4/5-2 defense was a common high school system in the 70s; I know, because my high school switched to it from a 4-3 when I was there.

In effect, the only difference between a 3-4 and a 5-2 is what you call the outside elements of the line and what their responsibilities are. In a 3-4 they're called outside linebackers and they will have some pass coverage responsibility. In a 5-2, you call them defensive ends and depending on the system they may or may not have pass coverage responsibility.

The "flex" end in Miami's 53 was Bob Matheson. The defense was named for his jersey number.

I knew it was Matsomething. I was close.

 

[StanleySpadowski]

Huh? Miami?


Actually the Houston Oilers (approximately 1974) and then the New England Pats were the first true "3-4" teams. The Oilers had acquired Curly Culp and found him to be the perfect nose guard... yeah back then they were called "nose guards".

Curly Culp was about 6' feet tall and about 270lbs-- and strong as an ox. And back then he was the perfect guy to play the nose.

A side note on Culp, he was a dominant college wrestler, serving as a precursor to other wrestlers turned NFLers like Carlton Hasselrig and now Stephen Neal.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Yep, Miami.

Someone posted an article about here a year ago or so. It was definitely Miami.

I don't ever recall anyone calling Miami's defense a "3-4".

 

[Rack]

I don't ever recall anyone calling Miami's defense a "3-4".

Just cuz they didn't call it a "3-4" doesn't mean it wasn't a 3-4.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Just cuz they didn't call it a "3-4" doesn't mean it wasn't a 3-4.

Oh I agree with that.

I just don't think Miami's "53 Defense" was a true 3-4 like Houston's.

I remember the press at the time talking about Houston's turnaround (they had two 1-13 seasons back to back I do believe) to a decent team and how much of that was attributable to this new fangled defense.

 

[Rack]

Oh I agree with that.

I just don't think Miami's "53 Defense" was a true 3-4 like Houston's.

I remember the press at the time talking about Houston's turnaround (they had two 1-13 seasons back to back I do believe) to a decent team and how much of that was attributable to this new fangled defense.

Well the "prototype" is usually never the same as the end result.


I'm sure the first time a team took a LB our and inserted a DB he didn't call it a "Nickel" either.

 

[dwmyers]

This was originally an article in Football Digest in 2003.

url: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCL/is_6_32/ai_96377043/pg_3

Super Bowl 7 would be the finest hour for Miami's "No-Name Defense." Under coordinator Bill Arnsparger, the Dolphins were quick, tenacious, and intelligent on defense. And innovative, too. When a rash of injuries left Miami thin on the defensive line, Arnsparger took linebacker Bob Matheson and moved him to the line of scrimmage. That 53 defense is nothing new now--Lawrence Taylor and Derrick Thomas made their livings playing in the scheme--but in 1972, opposing offenses were baffled by it.

This was from an old page on MiamiDolphins.com that only exists now in Google cache, but from the notes on year 1971:

[FONT=Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]September 1
Miami obtains LB Bob Matheson from Cleveland in trade for 1972 second-round pick and Matheson later becomes key to the 53 Defense.[/SIZE][/FONT]

From a Houston Oilers site:

url: http://www.houstonprofootball.com/log/log5.html

New blood ran through the Oilers' veins and it lent vigor to a team with talent but little confidence. Robert Brazile, a tough and speedy linebacker, was added in the 1975 draft as was RB Don Hardeman, a first-round pick from Texas A&I known as "Jaws" for his non-stop mouth. DE Bubba Smith joined his younger brother Tody on the defensive line but his bad knees left him a shell of his All-Pro form. Carl Mauck came from San Diego to anchor an emerging offensive line.

Phillips implemented a defensive front with only three down linemen and four linebackers. The "3-4" defensive grew out of the college game and Miami's "53" defense that used a "tweener" who was sometimes a DE and sometimes a linebacker. The "3-4" added quickness off the ball and was surprisingly effective against the game's top runners like Pittsburgh's Franco Harris and Buffalo's O.J. Simpson.

From a ESPN page 2 article about the best defenses of all time, we get this quote. It's confusing because the author clearly has no clue what Miami's base defense was. It was a 4-3, with some 53 mixed in, but the stats about the 1973 defense are worth noting:

url: http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/bestNFLdefense.html

8. 1973 Miami Dolphins The Dolphins 53/"No Name" Defense ("53" was linebacker Bob Matheson's number) held 11 opponents to 14 points or less, setting a record by allowing just 150 points in a 14-game season. Defensive end Bill Stanfill set a Dolphins' sack record that still stands, with 18.5. In the playoffs and Super Bowl, they allowed only 33 points against Cincinnati, Oakland and Minnesota. Stanfill, Manny Fernandez, Hall of Fame middle linebacker Nick Buoniconti, and safeties Dick Anderson (AP Defensive Player of the Year) and Jake Scott were all named to the 1973 All-Pro team.

Before facing the Dolphins in Super Bowl VIII, Vikings QB Fran Tarkenton oozed confidence, saying he'd solved the 53. "I think you've got to prepare for the 53 defense, you've got to make it so the Dolphins don't know what to expect. I'm sure we'll prepare a little bit different." It didn't work. The Vikings lost 24-7, scoring their only TD in the fourth quarter.

In an article about the evolution of the modern Chicago bears defense, the Chicago Tribune talk about many things, including the 53. I've added a bit more of the article because of the parallels to Parcells' use of LT and DeMarcus Ware.

url: http://chicagosports.chicagotribune...,664744.column?page=2&coll=cs-bears-headlines

NFL defenses always have sought speed. But the presence of five- and six-man defensive lines in the 1950s and 1960s placed a higher premium on strength and size in order to stop the run. That began to change in 1972, when the Miami Dolphins designed their "53" defense to utilize the pass-rushing skills of outside linebacker Bob Matheson, No. 53, and went on to an undefeated season.

Before long, the New England Patriots were tinkering with a 3-4 defense under coach Chuck Fairbanks and a trend toward speedy, aggressive quarterback chasers had begun.

Lawrence Taylor, drafted in 1981 by the New York Giants, ensured it was here to stay. The first outside linebacker to lead the league in sacks changed the game. In the opinion of one longtime NFL consultant, Taylor allowed the Giants to build a defense around his freakish athletic skills much the way the Bears have around Urlacher.

"So much of having a [speed] defense depends on getting the right one or two guys at the top end and the Giants had that with Taylor and Carl Banks like the Bears have with Urlacher and [Lance] Briggs," said Frank Coyle, head scout for draftinsiders.com who consults for several teams.

From an interview with Bob Baumhower from phinatics.com, this answers the question of whether the 53 was an ODD or EVEN defense. Bob is speaking in this quote.

url: http://www.phinatics.com/bobbaumhower.htm

The main reason the Dolphins went to the 3-4 in the first place was because they had a lot of defensive lineman hurt in the early 70's --- that's what Coach Arnsparger said. And then they put Manny Fernandez on the nose, and he did a great job. And then they had Bob Matheson, who was kind of a tweener, kind of a big linebacker, and that's where the 53 defense came from.

That's it for now. I imagine we could all find out more if you bought one of those film collections of the early 1970s Dolphins and broke down some tape.

David.

 

[MichaelWinicki]

Well the "prototype" is usually never the same as the end result.


I'm sure the first time a team took a LB our and inserted a DB he didn't call it a "Nickel" either.

This article from NFL.com states that Bum Phillips and Houston were the first ones to use the 3-4...



If the 3-4 defense fits, wear it





Hand a chef a bushel of tomatoes and he'll make tomato sauce. Give a football coach an abundance of talented linebackers and he may cook up a 3-4 defense.

Five NFL clubs will make the 3-4 their primary defensive formation in 2003: Atlanta, Baltimore, Houston, New England and Pittsburgh. That is three more than at the start of the 2001 season when only Pittsburgh employed it in every game and New England used it as their base defense for Weeks 1-6.


Pro-Bowl LB Keith Brooking enjoys playing in the heart of Atlanta's 3-4 defense.
O.A. "Bum" Phillips, the former Houston Oilers (1975-80) and New Orleans Saints (1981-85) head coach, was the first to use the 3-4 set on every down in 1975. In 11 seasons as a head coach, Phillips' defenses ranked in the league's top half nine times. When he became the Saints' head coach in 1981, Phillips inherited the league's worst defense (No. 28 overall) and built it into an NFL top-five unit in three of the next five seasons.

"To work the 3-4, you need linebackers who can really run," says the 79-year-old Phillips from his Texas ranch 150 miles southwest of Houston. "Defensive lineman in the 3-4 can all be tackle-types. It's a whole lot easier to find defensive tackles than ends. We still rushed four people 90 percent of the time and sometimes we sent five.

"It gave you a chance to get a linebacker rushing against a halfback and they couldn't block them one-on-one. I remember (with Houston) one time up in Buffalo, we rushed (outside linebacker) Robert Brazile on O.J. Simpson's side. Well, O.J. never came out of the backfield."

According to Phillips, by 1980, 19 of the league's 28 teams ran the 3-4.

"I think it's a matter of talent more than philosophy," says Ravens defensive coordinator Mike Nolan, who will use the 3-4 in Baltimore for a second consecutive season in 2003. Baltimore's defense finished in a tie for the NFL's lowest average yards per rush (3.7) in 2002 and posted an AFC-best 25 interceptions, eclipsing the franchise record of 23.

"You always want to get your best players on the field," says Nolan. "We have more good linebackers than we have defensive linemen right now. If we have Peter Boulware, Edgerton Hartwell, Ray Lewis or Terrell Suggs standing on the sideline during a game, then we aren't playing our best 11 on defense."

As a first-year expansion team in 2002, the Houston Texans ' 3-4 base finished the season ranked No. 16 in the NFL overall (326.9) and No. 4 in the AFC against the pass (196.3). Defensive coordinator Vic Fangio believes an offense's unfamiliarity with the 3-4 offers his unit advantages.

"It changes blocking schemes in pass protection at times," says Fangio. "I do think that if you get an opponent at a point in the season where they haven't seen a 3-4 in a couple of months, that could be an advantage."

Fangio echoes Phillips and Nolan in stressing how important playmaking linebackers are in the 3-4.

"The dominating outside linebacker is the most critical position. Most colleges aren't using the 3-4 and smaller guys are playing linebacker. If you're playing outside linebacker in this defense, you're half defensive end and half linebacker. You need a defensive end's size and the athletic ability of a linebacker at that position."

Two-time Pro Bowl inside linebacker Keith Brooking of the Falcons enjoys playing in the heart of the 3-4 under defensive coordinator Wade Phillips, Bum's son. The Falcons reached the NFC Divisional Playoffs last season with a defense that forced more turnovers (39) than every NFL club other than Green Bay (45).

"As players, it allows us to go out there and just play aggressively and play defense the way you should play it," says Brooking. "It creates havoc for opposing offenses because you can blitz from a lot of different places when you have four linebackers.

"If you have two outside linebackers who can really rush, offenses can't slide their protection to one of those linebackers because you don't know which one is going to come."

 

[Rack]

This article from NFL.com states that Bum Phillips and Houston were the first ones to use the 3-4...

They were probably the first ones to name it, but they weren't the first ones to use it. They didn't "create" it. I'm sure they took what Miami did and extended/tweaked it, but the fact is Miami was the first to have a D with 3 down linemen, and 4 Standing up.


Like I said, I read the article here over a year ago. Search for that guys name here and I'm sure you'll find it.

 

[Rack]

Ok for some reason the search feature was removed from the forums. It was here a few days ago, and now it's gone.


Wierd.