An elite player on defense makes everybody else better

xwalker

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The 2016 defense just had too many talent limitations. Any of the 2016 starters could be OK when looking at them individually if they were surround by more talent.

I'm convinced that if they could add 2 elite players to the defense, then all the surrounding 2016 players would have been good enough to have an elite overall defense. The preferred spots would be RDE and CB, but adding an elite player at any position would make the surrounding players better.

We saw in 2015 that having Greg Hardy at RDE made DLaw a quality LDE because he was not facing double-teams.

If Jaylon Smith can play, then he projects to be an elite coverage LB and an elite blitzer. That helps cover for players like Church with limited range. Obviously adding an elite RDE would move Mayowa from starting to backup RDE with DLaw moving back to LDE. and TCrawford or Irving moving back to full time DT. Upgrading from Carr at CB would make it easier to scheme around the limited range of players like Church or vice-versa.

Church - He has very limited range but could be OK if the CBs were near-elite and/or if the LBs were near-elite in coverage or if they had a great pass rush.
Carr - Reliable but limited CB. If both Safeties have great range and the LBs are really good in coverage, then he would be fine.
Hitchens - Steady in run defense but limited range in coverage. Again, if surrounded by near-elite coverage players or a great pass rush, then he's good enough.
Durant - Often replaced Hitchens on passing downs. Good enough in coverage if surrounding coverage players are better and/or pass rush is better.
Brown - Played really well for a rookie, but didn't always get the help that you would normally give to a rookie CB because the FS also had to try to cover up limitations of Carr, Church, Hitchens, etc..
Claiborne - Played really well before injury but appeared rusty and limited in the playoff game.
Jones - Tried to cover up for limitations of other players. The scheme had to account for him moving down to cover TEs. If they had a Strong Safety or LB that could occasionally cover TEs, it would make the scheme much easier to implement and would put less strain on Jones (Jaylon Smith would likely be good in coverage against TEs).

DL- Adding 1 elite player would make all others better. Elite RDE would be preferred, but an elite 3-tech DT next to Collins on passing downs could also make everybody else better.
Mayowa - By the end of the season he was a good 2nd string RDE but instead was starting.
DLaw - Better as a LDE but had to play RDE.
TCrawford - Better at 3-tech DT but played LDE. Might be good enough at LDE if RDE is elite pass rusher.
Irving - Good young player. Faced too many double teams at LDE due to lack of elite RDE.
Collins - Good young DT. Played both 3-tech and 1-tech but mostly 3-tech. Could play 1-tech in the future if the Cowboy had an elite 3-tech DT.
T.McClain - Really good early but slowed late in the season due to playing through minor injuries.
Thorton - Disappointing early but decent 1-tech with some pass rush ability by the end of the season.
JCrawford - Limited, try-hard player.

The other possibility on upgrading the pass rush is to draft a hybrid LB/DE type. Marinelli did try to use Wilber this way and to a small extent used Wilson as a blitzer late in the season. There are a couple of guys in this upcoming draft that look like elite pass rushers but are too small to play DE full time. If those players could be used the way Seattle used Bruce Irvin in the past, then that could be an option for upgrading the pass rush if they can't find a legit difference making RDE. Even if they can get the RDE, if there is an elite pass rushing hybrid player around the 3rd round, then that would just add to the overall pass rush options.
 

StarBoyz83

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It does make sense. But don't see any elite players being added in the offseason. Drafted defensive players usually take a bit to get there.
 

GhostOfPelluer

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As ideal as an elite player or two would be, if we can simply upgrade in a couple spots - can be simply good without having to be great - that could be enough to get over the hump. We had good depth this season. The bottom of the roster was better than it's been in some time. We just need a little better top end quality.
 

Kolemmitt

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The other possibility on upgrading the pass rush is to draft a hybrid LB/DE type. Marinelli did try to use Wilber this way and to a small extent used Wilson as a blitzer late in the season. There are a couple of guys in this upcoming draft that look like elite pass rushers but are too small to play DE full time. If those players could be used the way Seattle used Bruce Irvin in the past, then that could be an option for upgrading the pass rush if they can't find a legit difference making RDE. Even if they can get the RDE, if there is an elite pass rushing hybrid player around the 3rd round, then that would just add to the overall pass rush options.

Haason Reddick is an interesting possibility. As you mentioned, they experimented with a LB/DE hybrid with Wilber, and if I remember correctly, they were going to take Shazier instead of Martin, if the Steelers had not picked him just before us, to fill that kind of role. The thought of Lee, (a healthy) Smith, and Reddick lining up at LB next year is tantalizing. All three play-makers. All three great blitzers and could come at any time from any where. On passing downs you could line up Reddick any where on the line and let him wreak havoc.
 

robjay04

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We were 5th in NFL the in PPG. Part of that is due to competition and design but part of it is due to the fact that we have some pretty good players.

We add a great player or two to our "pretty good players" and our defense can become a strength
 

Kaiser

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Good OP, do you consider Melvin Ingram an elite talent for the RDE position? He is the only guy I see that fits the bill, if not I think we end up with 1st or 2nd round edge rusher to add to DLaw and Mayowa at RDE, a good rotation add but not the kind of elite talent you are posting about.
 

LocimusPrime

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The 2016 defense just had too many talent limitations. Any of the 2016 starters could be OK when looking at them individually if they were surround by more talent.

I'm convinced that if they could add 2 elite players to the defense, then all the surrounding 2016 players would have been good enough to have an elite overall defense. The preferred spots would be RDE and CB, but adding an elite player at any position would make the surrounding players better.

We saw in 2015 that having Greg Hardy at RDE made DLaw a quality LDE because he was not facing double-teams.

If Jaylon Smith can play, then he projects to be an elite coverage LB and an elite blitzer. That helps cover for players like Church with limited range. Obviously adding an elite RDE would move Mayowa from starting to backup RDE with DLaw moving back to LDE. and TCrawford or Irving moving back to full time DT. Upgrading from Carr at CB would make it easier to scheme around the limited range of players like Church or vice-versa.

Church - He has very limited range but could be OK if the CBs were near-elite and/or if the LBs were near-elite in coverage or if they had a great pass rush.
Carr - Reliable but limited CB. If both Safeties have great range and the LBs are really good in coverage, then he would be fine.
Hitchens - Steady in run defense but limited range in coverage. Again, if surrounded by near-elite coverage players or a great pass rush, then he's good enough.
Durant - Often replaced Hitchens on passing downs. Good enough in coverage if surrounding coverage players are better and/or pass rush is better.
Brown - Played really well for a rookie, but didn't always get the help that you would normally give to a rookie CB because the FS also had to try to cover up limitations of Carr, Church, Hitchens, etc..
Claiborne - Played really well before injury but appeared rusty and limited in the playoff game.
Jones - Tried to cover up for limitations of other players. The scheme had to account for him moving down to cover TEs. If they had a Strong Safety or LB that could occasionally cover TEs, it would make the scheme much easier to implement and would put less strain on Jones (Jaylon Smith would likely be good in coverage against TEs).

DL- Adding 1 elite player would make all others better. Elite RDE would be preferred, but an elite 3-tech DT next to Collins on passing downs could also make everybody else better.
Mayowa - By the end of the season he was a good 2nd string RDE but instead was starting.
DLaw - Better as a LDE but had to play RDE.
TCrawford - Better at 3-tech DT but played LDE. Might be good enough at LDE if RDE is elite pass rusher.
Irving - Good young player. Faced too many double teams at LDE due to lack of elite RDE.
Collins - Good young DT. Played both 3-tech and 1-tech but mostly 3-tech. Could play 1-tech in the future if the Cowboy had an elite 3-tech DT.
T.McClain - Really good early but slowed late in the season due to playing through minor injuries.
Thorton - Disappointing early but decent 1-tech with some pass rush ability by the end of the season.
JCrawford - Limited, try-hard player.

The other possibility on upgrading the pass rush is to draft a hybrid LB/DE type. Marinelli did try to use Wilber this way and to a small extent used Wilson as a blitzer late in the season. There are a couple of guys in this upcoming draft that look like elite pass rushers but are too small to play DE full time. If those players could be used the way Seattle used Bruce Irvin in the past, then that could be an option for upgrading the pass rush if they can't find a legit difference making RDE. Even if they can get the RDE, if there is an elite pass rushing hybrid player around the 3rd round, then that would just add to the overall pass rush options.
Excellent! Elite talent does help the surrounding players.
 

LocimusPrime

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The 2016 defense just had too many talent limitations. Any of the 2016 starters could be OK when looking at them individually if they were surround by more talent.

I'm convinced that if they could add 2 elite players to the defense, then all the surrounding 2016 players would have been good enough to have an elite overall defense. The preferred spots would be RDE and CB, but adding an elite player at any position would make the surrounding players better.

We saw in 2015 that having Greg Hardy at RDE made DLaw a quality LDE because he was not facing double-teams.

If Jaylon Smith can play, then he projects to be an elite coverage LB and an elite blitzer. That helps cover for players like Church with limited range. Obviously adding an elite RDE would move Mayowa from starting to backup RDE with DLaw moving back to LDE. and TCrawford or Irving moving back to full time DT. Upgrading from Carr at CB would make it easier to scheme around the limited range of players like Church or vice-versa.

Church - He has very limited range but could be OK if the CBs were near-elite and/or if the LBs were near-elite in coverage or if they had a great pass rush.
Carr - Reliable but limited CB. If both Safeties have great range and the LBs are really good in coverage, then he would be fine.
Hitchens - Steady in run defense but limited range in coverage. Again, if surrounded by near-elite coverage players or a great pass rush, then he's good enough.
Durant - Often replaced Hitchens on passing downs. Good enough in coverage if surrounding coverage players are better and/or pass rush is better.
Brown - Played really well for a rookie, but didn't always get the help that you would normally give to a rookie CB because the FS also had to try to cover up limitations of Carr, Church, Hitchens, etc..
Claiborne - Played really well before injury but appeared rusty and limited in the playoff game.
Jones - Tried to cover up for limitations of other players. The scheme had to account for him moving down to cover TEs. If they had a Strong Safety or LB that could occasionally cover TEs, it would make the scheme much easier to implement and would put less strain on Jones (Jaylon Smith would likely be good in coverage against TEs).

DL- Adding 1 elite player would make all others better. Elite RDE would be preferred, but an elite 3-tech DT next to Collins on passing downs could also make everybody else better.
Mayowa - By the end of the season he was a good 2nd string RDE but instead was starting.
DLaw - Better as a LDE but had to play RDE.
TCrawford - Better at 3-tech DT but played LDE. Might be good enough at LDE if RDE is elite pass rusher.
Irving - Good young player. Faced too many double teams at LDE due to lack of elite RDE.
Collins - Good young DT. Played both 3-tech and 1-tech but mostly 3-tech. Could play 1-tech in the future if the Cowboy had an elite 3-tech DT.
T.McClain - Really good early but slowed late in the season due to playing through minor injuries.
Thorton - Disappointing early but decent 1-tech with some pass rush ability by the end of the season.
JCrawford - Limited, try-hard player.

The other possibility on upgrading the pass rush is to draft a hybrid LB/DE type. Marinelli did try to use Wilber this way and to a small extent used Wilson as a blitzer late in the season. There are a couple of guys in this upcoming draft that look like elite pass rushers but are too small to play DE full time. If those players could be used the way Seattle used Bruce Irvin in the past, then that could be an option for upgrading the pass rush if they can't find a legit difference making RDE. Even if they can get the RDE, if there is an elite pass rushing hybrid player around the 3rd round, then that would just add to the overall pass rush options.
Excellent points!

I would love to draft a DE in the first and getting a 11-14mill a year DE in FA to bolster the pass rush
 

Bullflop

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If just a couple of our holdover d-linemen from 2016 improve considerably and we get a good pass rusher in the draft, we would be in business. Of course, Jaylon would likely tend to add to that situation handsomely. Such simple possibilities are far from being wishful thinking, imho.
 
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xwalker

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Good OP, do you consider Melvin Ingram an elite talent for the RDE position? He is the only guy I see that fits the bill, if not I think we end up with 1st or 2nd round edge rusher to add to DLaw and Mayowa at RDE, a good rotation add but not the kind of elite talent you are posting about.
I need to pull up some All-22 on Ingram. He is 6-2, 247. He had 8 sacks this season and 10.5 last year.

Nick Perry (Packers) is an option but I would not call him elite. . He had 11 sacks this season. At 6-3, 265 there are no questions about his size.

There are a lot of possibilities for DEs in the draft but picking the right one at #28 will be difficult. It's different than some years where the cutoff between really good and developmental DEs was obvious. This year there seems to be a bigger group of DEs that might be really good but less that seem definite. There are guys being projected to be 2nd rounders that don't look much different than some guys projected to the top half of the first.
 

stilltheguru88

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Y'all are going to be shocked when we put out the same starting dline next year which is a strong possibility.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Hard to get elite players through free agency....... the best bet is to draft and develop some and that's if you are lucky to draft one.
 

TheMarathonContinues

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Y'all are going to be shocked when we put out the same starting dline next year which is a strong possibility.
I won't be. There's a strong chance this team says let's go with what we had last year in hope that some of these guys get better. It's the same exact off-season we had this year. And they improved. I think they will take the same approach. Due to limited resources but also the fact that there really isn't much out there. Maybe some cheap older vets are looked at.
 

dallasfan4lizife

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Eric Berry, da most hardest hittin' safety in da league.

Sign him!

Byron Jones needs to be moved back to corner. He's very underwhelming at safety.
 

Ranching

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The 2016 defense just had too many talent limitations. Any of the 2016 starters could be OK when looking at them individually if they were surround by more talent.

I'm convinced that if they could add 2 elite players to the defense, then all the surrounding 2016 players would have been good enough to have an elite overall defense. The preferred spots would be RDE and CB, but adding an elite player at any position would make the surrounding players better.

We saw in 2015 that having Greg Hardy at RDE made DLaw a quality LDE because he was not facing double-teams.

If Jaylon Smith can play, then he projects to be an elite coverage LB and an elite blitzer. That helps cover for players like Church with limited range. Obviously adding an elite RDE would move Mayowa from starting to backup RDE with DLaw moving back to LDE. and TCrawford or Irving moving back to full time DT. Upgrading from Carr at CB would make it easier to scheme around the limited range of players like Church or vice-versa.

Church - He has very limited range but could be OK if the CBs were near-elite and/or if the LBs were near-elite in coverage or if they had a great pass rush.
Carr - Reliable but limited CB. If both Safeties have great range and the LBs are really good in coverage, then he would be fine.
Hitchens - Steady in run defense but limited range in coverage. Again, if surrounded by near-elite coverage players or a great pass rush, then he's good enough.
Durant - Often replaced Hitchens on passing downs. Good enough in coverage if surrounding coverage players are better and/or pass rush is better.
Brown - Played really well for a rookie, but didn't always get the help that you would normally give to a rookie CB because the FS also had to try to cover up limitations of Carr, Church, Hitchens, etc..
Claiborne - Played really well before injury but appeared rusty and limited in the playoff game.
Jones - Tried to cover up for limitations of other players. The scheme had to account for him moving down to cover TEs. If they had a Strong Safety or LB that could occasionally cover TEs, it would make the scheme much easier to implement and would put less strain on Jones (Jaylon Smith would likely be good in coverage against TEs).

DL- Adding 1 elite player would make all others better. Elite RDE would be preferred, but an elite 3-tech DT next to Collins on passing downs could also make everybody else better.
Mayowa - By the end of the season he was a good 2nd string RDE but instead was starting.
DLaw - Better as a LDE but had to play RDE.
TCrawford - Better at 3-tech DT but played LDE. Might be good enough at LDE if RDE is elite pass rusher.
Irving - Good young player. Faced too many double teams at LDE due to lack of elite RDE.
Collins - Good young DT. Played both 3-tech and 1-tech but mostly 3-tech. Could play 1-tech in the future if the Cowboy had an elite 3-tech DT.
T.McClain - Really good early but slowed late in the season due to playing through minor injuries.
Thorton - Disappointing early but decent 1-tech with some pass rush ability by the end of the season.
JCrawford - Limited, try-hard player.

The other possibility on upgrading the pass rush is to draft a hybrid LB/DE type. Marinelli did try to use Wilber this way and to a small extent used Wilson as a blitzer late in the season. There are a couple of guys in this upcoming draft that look like elite pass rushers but are too small to play DE full time. If those players could be used the way Seattle used Bruce Irvin in the past, then that could be an option for upgrading the pass rush if they can't find a legit difference making RDE. Even if they can get the RDE, if there is an elite pass rushing hybrid player around the 3rd round, then that would just add to the overall pass rush options.
It's too bad we won't know about Jaylon for a few months. We can't afford to wait on him or any other rookie. At least one quality free agent needs to be added. IMO Either a qualty pass rusher or lockdown corner to make our current line better.
 
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