Any defense in NFL history with the same problems as Dallas make a quick adjustment?

[TruBlueCowboy]

Just curious if anyone remembers a season in which a defense with problems similar to Dallas made a successful one year shift from 3-4 to 4-3 or vice versa?

The problems being:

• A heavy reliance on rookies.

• Still too many undersized (or oversized) players not right for that formation.

• Poor performance the prior season.

I remember Atlanta failing not too long ago when they tried to go with the 3-4 with too many players suited for a 4-3. Any of you NFL gurus remember a team where the defense reasonably succeeded in its inaugral season with these kinds of changes and obstacles?

 

[STREAK84]

I believe the Chargers made a nice switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 last season.

 

[Qwickdraw]

You beat me by two minutes.
Chargers.
Last year.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

I believe the Chargers made a nice switch from the 4-3 to the 3-4 last season.

But did the Chargers have the same personnel problems? I'm not real familiar with that team being on the opposite coast. I think they've been so bad in recent years that Ryan Leaf locker room fights get more TV than their games. :laugh2:

 

[jobberone]

I think Parcells will play the best players in the best schemes that produce.

I think we have to wait and see how Spears, Ware, Canty and Burnett will perform.

Same with some of the second and third year players.

Same with how Ellis, Glover and others do in the 3-4 vs the 4-3.

I think it's absurd to believe that someone as successful as Parcells would lose just to be blindly faithful to the 3-4. Not to mention all the others coaches and people in the organization who serve as input/checks on the HC/DC/OC yada.

Be patient please.

He/they will do the best he/they can with what he/they have. I don't think anything is cast in stone yet.

 

[Dallas4ever]

I think Parcells will play the best players in the best schemes that produce.

I think we have to wait and see how Spears, Ware, Canty and Burnett will perform.

Same with some of the second and third year players.

Same with how Ellis, Glover and others do in the 3-4 vs the 4-3.

I think it's absurd to believe that someone as successful as Parcells would lose just to be blindly faithful to the 3-4. Not to mention all the others coaches and people in the organization who serve as input/checks on the HC/DC/OC yada.

Be patient please.

I totally agree....well said. We will see the formation that produces best...Period.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

I understand the point.

I'm not a happy fan so I think there will be some rough spots in the transition. For goodness sakes if nothing else, the reliance on all the rookies is enough to give any coach gray hairs. So we are kidding ourselves if we think our defensive play will not be bad at times.

However, as I've said before, Parcells MUST move to the defense he's had success with because the small, undersized unit we've used the past several years simply isn't getting it done. You can't expect Parcells to stay with something he really doesn't believe in, especially when it's performing exactly as he feared it would when he took the job.

 

[TruBlueCowboy]

Okay, did a quick rundown on the Chargers after looking at their depth chart. You fellas are right. They do have a lot of similarities. I'm not sure how successful someone would classify San Diego's defense, though, because I notice they are actually lower than the 2004 Cowboys in some team defensive stats such as yards per game allowed. It did look like they had a lot more forced turnovers, which is I guess what the 3-4 backers would tell you is going to happen this year with the Cowboys.

Here's the comparisons: (the similar players are in italics)

DE Igor Olshansky 6-6, 309, rookie in 2004 -- Similar to Marcus Spears situation.

DT Jamal Williams 6-3, 348 -- Another big ol' vet perfectly suited for nose tackle, like Ferguson. Similar.

DE Jacques Cesaire 6-2, 295 -- Much bigger vet than Greg Ellis, not similar at all.

OLB Ben Leber 6-3, 244, 3rd year last season -- Similar to Al Singleton. A steady vet who doesn't get much glory. He's got a little bit of size, though, on Singleton. I'll say this is similar enough.

ILB Donnie Edwards 6-2, 227 -- Similar to Dat although I'm sure most people would tell you he's a better linebacker. Vet, undersized, good skills. Similar situation.

ILB Randall Godfrey 6-2, 245 -- We all know Randall. Bradie James ain't no Godfrey. It would be nice if he could surprise us all and become one.

OLB Steve Foley 6-4, 265 -- I guess he's the sack machine the Cowboys are hoping Ware can be although he's much bigger. He's a vet too, so different situation than Ware.

 

[WoodysGirl]

Okay, did a quick rundown on the Chargers after looking at their depth chart. You fellas are right. They do have a lot of similarities. I'm not sure how successful someone would classify San Diego's defense, though, because I notice they are actually lower than the 2004 Cowboys in some team defensive stats such as yards per game allowed. It did look like they had a lot more forced turnovers, which is I guess what the 3-4 backers would tell you is going to happen this year with the Cowboys.

Here's the comparisons: (the similar players are in italics)

DE Igor Olshansky 6-6, 309, rookie in 2004 -- Similar to Marcus Spears situation.

DT Jamal Williams 6-3, 348 -- Another big ol' vet perfectly suited for nose tackle, like Ferguson. Similar.

DE Jacques Cesaire 6-2, 295 -- Much bigger vet than Greg Ellis, not similar at all.

OLB Ben Leber 6-3, 244, 3rd year last season -- Similar to Al Singleton. A steady vet who doesn't get much glory. He's got a little bit of size, though, on Singleton. I'll say this is similar enough.

ILB Donnie Edwards 6-2, 227 -- Similar to Dat although I'm sure most people would tell you he's a better linebacker. Vet, undersized, good skills. Similar situation.

ILB Randall Godfrey 6-2, 245 -- We all know Randall. Bradie James ain't no Godfrey. It would be nice if he could surprise us all and become one.

OLB Steve Foley 6-4, 265 -- I guess he's the sack machine the Cowboys are hoping Ware can be although he's much bigger. He's a vet too, so different situation than Ware.

One other difference is they have a DC who has coached it before. Several times. The reason why Wade Phillips was even in SD was because he tried to implement the 3-4 in Atl and they got hosed because the personnel wasn't suited for it.

Atl went back to the 4-3 and all of a sudden they've got pro bowl DEs. But the DT Rod Coleman was the centerpiece to their D-line success. When he got hurt in a car accident and had to sit for a few games, Kerney disappeared.

The biggest diff I see outside of the coaching aspect w/SD is that we're a little more dependant on the young guys producing and succeeding than they were. They've got vets who have been in the league for several years up and down the line.

 

[austintodallas]

I think it's absurd to believe that someone as successful as Parcells would lose just to be blindly faithful to the 3-4.

And we have a winner! Come on guys. We all know there is nothing that Parcells hates more in life than to lose.

Of course he wants to play 3-4 as much as possible and over the next two seasons he will turn the Cowboys into a predominantly 3-4 team.

But until then, Parcells will play whatever defense gives us the best chance to win on any given Sunday, whether it be 3-4, 4-3, both, or neither.

 

[junk]

SD also added two 3-4 pieces early this year: Merriman and Castillo.

I think they take a look in camp and play what works best for the team. I have no doubts BP wants it to be 3-4. However, that is why he needs Glover and Ellis this year. In case it doesn't and to ease those rooks into the NFL life.

 

[Kangaroo]

Atlanta befor Mora went from a 4-3 to a 3-4 and it was a disater the defense dropped further in the ranking and made th year before look great. They then switched back under Mora and the defense got better instantly.

The Raiders switched last year and took Sap who plays the same poistion as glove and moved him to DE the Raiders defense did not improve and regressed some.

The Ravens switched a few years back after two years of running the 3-4 or returning to the 4-3 alignment

So saying the 3-4 is the end all be all is not true.

The posts that make me laugh it is eaiser to find a pass rushing lb in the 3-4 yet the Texans have been trying for 3 years to fill that spot. They started a rookie there last year who struggled at times. I find the above statement funny.

Most guys that are 3-4 rushing LB's are converted DE in college and take a period of adjustments

 

[MapleLeaf]

Okay, did a quick rundown on the Chargers after looking at their depth chart. You fellas are right. They do have a lot of similarities. I'm not sure how successful someone would classify San Diego's defense, though, because I notice they are actually lower than the 2004 Cowboys in some team defensive stats such as yards per game allowed. It did look like they had a lot more forced turnovers, which is I guess what the 3-4 backers would tell you is going to happen this year with the Cowboys.

Here's the comparisons: (the similar players are in italics)

DE Igor Olshansky 6-6, 309, rookie in 2004 -- Similar to Marcus Spears situation.

DT Jamal Williams 6-3, 348 -- Another big ol' vet perfectly suited for nose tackle, like Ferguson. Similar.

DE Jacques Cesaire 6-2, 295 -- Much bigger vet than Greg Ellis, not similar at all.

OLB Ben Leber 6-3, 244, 3rd year last season -- Similar to Al Singleton. A steady vet who doesn't get much glory. He's got a little bit of size, though, on Singleton. I'll say this is similar enough.

ILB Donnie Edwards 6-2, 227 -- Similar to Dat although I'm sure most people would tell you he's a better linebacker. Vet, undersized, good skills. Similar situation.

ILB Randall Godfrey 6-2, 245 -- We all know Randall. Bradie James ain't no Godfrey. It would be nice if he could surprise us all and become one.

OLB Steve Foley 6-4, 265 -- I guess he's the sack machine the Cowboys are hoping Ware can be although he's much bigger. He's a vet too, so different situation than Ware.

...situation was enhanced by the vets who had prior experience in the NFL at the 3-4. Also, don't underestimate the value of Ladanian Tomlinson (sp?) to ease the transition for the defence.

I don't expect much out of the defence. I'm really expecting the offence to carry the day this year as we adjust to a whole new system, players and coordinator.

I believe that the popularity for the 3-4 is based on the fact that pundits believe that there are more undersized DEs in the draft than Pro Bowl calibre 4-3 DEs.

The ease of transition would be based on teaching, fit and experience. If you can't teach it properly there's gonna be trouble. If the players don't fit there's the same problem. Last but not least is experience to determine how quickly you are successful and can overcome the first two problems with a master stroke.

BP will have some rust to work out at the start. I expect no less.