Are the Cowboys really that far away

CATCH17

1st Round Pick
Messages
66,924
Reaction score
84,287
I don't disagree, although I would say we came just a rat's hair away from advancing in both 2014 and 2016, so even with Garrett's shortcomings just a little more help could push us further toward the goal. But, again, I would like to focus this on the player personnel issues, which I don't believe are insurmountable this offseason.


2014 I won't put as much blame on him. We found a way to lose which is typical of Garrett teams but still I won't put that game on him as much as I do Murray's fumble and Dez's catch being called a no catch.


2016.. They went to GB earlier in the year and dominated GB so I guess they thought they could roll out the same game plan against Rodgers in the playoffs.. Well Rodgers adjusted and played maybe the best game of football I've ever seen and the game avalanched on us much like the Rams game did this past season when McVay did a bunch of pre-snap stuff that had our defense clueless as to who had the ball.
 

johneric8

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,221
Reaction score
3,159
I was thinking about the Cowboys player personnel needs, and what has been posted on this site about those needs, and given that almost everyone has the same list, although not always in the same order, and given that it really boils down to about 3-4 important needs, I have to wonder if the Cowboys are really that far away from being the team we hope to see.

Let's not talk about Dak, because we won't draft a QB with a top pick, or Jerry and Jason who also won't be replaced for 2019. I know ... these are key roles, but for this thread let's talk about what is possible to address. If the mantra is only that the Cowboys have to suck with those guys, there are plenty of other threads to post that in.

It seems to me that the focus for most posters is solidly on 4 positions - S, DT, WR & TE, so, with so few major needs, I can't help but think the Cowboys have a realistic chance to address all of them.

SAFETY: If, as many think, ET is a target, signing him would address safety and take out one of the major needs.

DEFENSIVE TACKLE: Obviously not having a 1st rounder hurts the chances to find a strong one, so that could be the biggest impediment. Still, we could go heavy at DT in the draft to improve the odds, or maybe trade up. And who knows, there is at least an outside chance Irving could get his stuff together - don't jump on that though because I do not advocate treating the offseason as if that will happen, and in fact, I believe we should treat it as if it won't, and it will be bonus if we are wrong.

WIDE RECEIVER: The chances are improved by the fact we don't need a #1 because of the Cooper trade, and many, including myself, think Gallup will be a quality #2 with a year of experience under his belt. We are also helped by the fact Cooper can move into the slot whenever needed, so that gives us versatility and allows us to look for the best receiver rather than a specific type of receiver. We also may already have a strong candidate in house to step up in Cedrick Wilson, who the Cowboys liked as a rookie last year before he got hurt in training camp. Of course, Adam Humphries is a free agent, and many think he would be ideal to replace Beasley, but the general feeling is the Cowboys won't be willing to pay what it will take to get him. Golden Tate would also fall in that category. But there should be a lot of #3 receiver options in the draft, plus there are several proven free agents that might cost a little but not break the bank. On the small side, Jon Brown, Jamison Crowder and Kendall Wright, but with the flexibility we have with Cooper we could go for a bigger, stronger receiver like Donte Moncrief.

TIGHT END: My personal belief that I know some will disagree with is TE is not a position we need to stretch for because once the Cowboys started targeting Jarwin and Schultz late in the season we saw notable results. They won't make the position elite, but I don't think elite is necessary to make the team strong. If someone we like falls to the middle rounds, or we want to take a shot on a reasonably priced veteran like Eifert, who has talent but is often injured, that would be reasonable, but there are other areas I believe are much more important to address. Plus, if we can fill the #3 WR spot capably that minimizes the need for a top receiver at TE.

Obviously there are other areas that could stand to be upgraded (O-Line depth), but the above seem to be the biggies.

Personally I can't understand why you're looking at our roster and wondering how far away the cowboys are. The Cowboys have had in the past, and currently have enough talent to win a super bowl. Just look at the difference Kris Richard made with our overall defense with better DB and Safety play! I think the real discussion needs to be what coaching changes and or philosophies need to happen to allow for this franchise to flourish. To keep thinking we're a player away is cute and all, but the reality of it is our coaching has been putrid overall and the reason we can never hang.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
No discussion on this topic that involves only players is relevant. There is no combination of available players anywhere on this planet that can realistically be signed by the Cowboys that Jason Garrett can win a Super Bowl with. On the other hand, there likely are numerous football coaches that could possibly win a super bowl with the current roster. That is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end of any discussion about how far off the cowboys are from winning a super bowl. The answer is NEVER as long as Jason Garrett is the coach.

Again, I mentioned that if all you are able to do is repeat the mantra the team sucks with the coach and GM we have, there are plenty of other threads for that. Those can't be changed, and the focus of this thread is what can be changed this offseason. We don't have to talk about coaching issues to talk about player personnel issues.
 

xwalker

Well-Known Member
Messages
56,925
Reaction score
64,361
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I was thinking about the Cowboys player personnel needs, and what has been posted on this site about those needs, and given that almost everyone has the same list, although not always in the same order, and given that it really boils down to about 3-4 important needs, I have to wonder if the Cowboys are really that far away from being the team we hope to see.

Let's not talk about Dak, because we won't draft a QB with a top pick, or Jerry and Jason who also won't be replaced for 2019. I know ... these are key roles, but for this thread let's talk about what is possible to address. If the mantra is only that the Cowboys have to suck with those guys, there are plenty of other threads to post that in.

It seems to me that the focus for most posters is solidly on 4 positions - S, DT, WR & TE, so, with so few major needs, I can't help but think the Cowboys have a realistic chance to address all of them.

SAFETY: If, as many think, ET is a target, signing him would address safety and take out one of the major needs.

DEFENSIVE TACKLE: Obviously not having a 1st rounder hurts the chances to find a strong one, so that could be the biggest impediment. Still, we could go heavy at DT in the draft to improve the odds, or maybe trade up. And who knows, there is at least an outside chance Irving could get his stuff together - don't jump on that though because I do not advocate treating the offseason as if that will happen, and in fact, I believe we should treat it as if it won't, and it will be bonus if we are wrong.

WIDE RECEIVER: The chances are improved by the fact we don't need a #1 because of the Cooper trade, and many, including myself, think Gallup will be a quality #2 with a year of experience under his belt. We are also helped by the fact Cooper can move into the slot whenever needed, so that gives us versatility and allows us to look for the best receiver rather than a specific type of receiver. We also may already have a strong candidate in house to step up in Cedrick Wilson, who the Cowboys liked as a rookie last year before he got hurt in training camp. Of course, Adam Humphries is a free agent, and many think he would be ideal to replace Beasley, but the general feeling is the Cowboys won't be willing to pay what it will take to get him. Golden Tate would also fall in that category. But there should be a lot of #3 receiver options in the draft, plus there are several proven free agents that might cost a little but not break the bank. On the small side, Jon Brown, Jamison Crowder and Kendall Wright, but with the flexibility we have with Cooper we could go for a bigger, stronger receiver like Donte Moncrief.

TIGHT END: My personal belief that I know some will disagree with is TE is not a position we need to stretch for because once the Cowboys started targeting Jarwin and Schultz late in the season we saw notable results. They won't make the position elite, but I don't think elite is necessary to make the team strong. If someone we like falls to the middle rounds, or we want to take a shot on a reasonably priced veteran like Eifert, who has talent but is often injured, that would be reasonable, but there are other areas I believe are much more important to address. Plus, if we can fill the #3 WR spot capably that minimizes the need for a top receiver at TE.

Obviously there are other areas that could stand to be upgraded (O-Line depth), but the above seem to be the biggies.

They didn't have any "must-upgrade" starters on the 2018 roster.

You touched on the connection of TE and slot WR for 2019. If the starting TE was near-elite, then having an inexperienced player like C.Wilson at slot WR would be a bit more palatable.

On the flip side, replacing Beasley with Adam Humphries would make the current TEs more palatable than with an unproven replacement for Beasley.

I'm as concerned about depth as starters.

If these players missed a significant number of games, the team might be doomed:
Tyron
Zeke
DLaw
Cooper
Maybe Gallup

Quality backups for the above players would get playing time even if the starters remained healthy with the exception of OT where the starter plays 100% of the snaps.

Signing ET would be interesting; although, FS was not in the top 5 of problems in the playoff loss to the Rams.

David Irving at his peak probably wouldn't have helped against the Rams because the Rams were trapping DLinemen out of position against the run and Irving is prone to that more than most.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,060
Reaction score
46,962
We are not. However, to take the next step accurate assessments must be made both as to player acquisition and scheme. If we continue w/ the same ol' same ol' and get some more TE's and CB's and injured LB's, yes, we are a long ways away.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,060
Reaction score
46,962
They didn't have any "must-upgrade" starters on the 2018 roster.

You touched on the connection of TE and slot WR for 2019. If the starting TE was near-elite, then having an inexperienced player like C.Wilson at slot WR would be a bit more palatable.

On the flip side, replacing Beasley with Adam Humphries would make the current TEs more palatable than with an unproven replacement for Beasley.

I'm as concerned about depth as starters.

If these players missed a significant number of games, the team might be doomed:
Tyron
Zeke
DLaw
Cooper
Maybe Gallup

Quality backups for the above players would get playing time even if the starters remained healthy with the exception of OT where the starter plays 100% of the snaps.

Signing ET would be interesting; although, FS was not in the top 5 of problems in the playoff loss to the Rams.

David Irving at his peak probably wouldn't have helped against the Rams because the Rams were trapping DLinemen out of position against the run and Irving is prone to that more than most.

Woods.

You missed Woods.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Personally I can't understand why you're looking at our roster and wondering how far away the cowboys are. The Cowboys have had in the past, and currently have enough talent to win a super bowl. Just look at the difference Kris Richard made with our overall defense with better DB and Safety play! I think the real discussion needs to be what coaching changes and or philosophies need to happen to allow for this franchise to flourish. To keep thinking we're a player away is cute and all, but the reality of it is our coaching has been putrid overall and the reason we can never hang.

Nobody said we are "a player away", but lets look at this realistically and then drop the coaching discussion.

Most of us believe Jerry and Jason are not good at their jobs, nevertheless (and I know I'm repeating what I wrote in other posts), we were just a shade away from getting past GB in 2014 and 2016 to advance in the playoffs. If a team can get that close a little added talent can help get past that, or maybe even a lucky break here or there. If we were getting blown out every time we lose a playoff game it would be different, but that isn't the case. Most playoff losses have been by a very narrow margin.

So, we can't change Jason, and there are only so many times and so many ways we can say "Jason sucks", and doing that just throws a road block in front of reasonable discussion about what can change to give the team a better chance. So, the choice is to either contribute to the conversation and thread, or just keep saying "Jason sucks" in some form over and over. I was hoping people would chose to contribute to the conversation and thread.
 

Fletch

To The Moon
Messages
18,368
Reaction score
14,005
DE. But I am obsessed with DE.

Right now, with Lawrence, they were still an average pass rush team. They ranked middle of the pack in sacks and pressures and even with advanced stats like Football Outsiders, we were a mediocre to poor pass rushing team.

The inability to get to the QB consistently is a flaw of this defense and will hold them back from being an elite D IMO. I don't know if possible, but I'd love to bring Lawrence back and add another stud DE. I am big Gregory guy but I am not sure he's ready to be that dominant guy.

Maybe we can remedy that with some scheme tweaks, using Smith and LVE to blitz more, but I think we are what we are scheme wise.
DE can be fixed if we get a viable push up the middle. I like Woods, but he needs some help. Hopefully we address the DT position dinner than later with an upgrade and not some JAG.

Doing this will make our D-ends that much better.
 

kskboys

Well-Known Member
Messages
44,060
Reaction score
46,962
Nobody said we are "a player away", but lets look at this realistically and then drop the coaching discussion.

Most of us believe Jerry and Jason are not good at their jobs, nevertheless (and I know I'm repeating what I wrote in other posts), we were just a shade away from getting past GB in 2014 and 2016 to advance in the playoffs. If a team can get that close they are a little talent away from getting past that, or maybe even a lucky break here or there. If we were getting blown out every time we lose a playoff game it would be different, but that isn't the case. Most playoff losses have been by a very narrow margin.

So, we can't change Jason, and there are only so many times and so many ways we can say "Jason sucks", and doing that just throws a road block in front of reasonable discussion about what can change to give the team a better chance. So, the choice is to either contribute to the conversation and thread, or just keep saying "Jason sucks" in some form over and over. I was hoping people would chose to contribute to the conversation and thread.
X a gadzillion.
 

Cowboys22

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,507
Reaction score
11,384
Again, I mentioned that if all you are able to do is repeat the mantra the team sucks with the coach and GM we have, there are plenty of other threads for that. Those can't be changed, and the focus of this thread is what can be changed this offseason. We don't have to talk about coaching issues to talk about player personnel issues.

Then by all means go right ahead wasting your breath and time.
 

CouchCoach

Staff member
Messages
41,122
Reaction score
74,900
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
They took the eventual NFC SB team to OT on their turf and were the best team in the NFL in close games. They beat the other NFCCG team during the regular season like they've not been beaten in a long time.

How far away is tricky because that is largely dependent on what the teams we consider to be ahead of the Cowboys do to improve and do they? How do LA, NO, CHI get better?

The hand wringing about this team comes down to the offense struggling too much, that Indy game and the run D in LA. Good teams are going to have those games that cause the fans to question everything and forget the one true thing, Any Given Sunday. Why do we think that came about? Good team stumbling against inferior teams. What happened in IND and LA were not indicative of this season or this team, just a bad game and bad day for the run D.

Now, the real reason for this "we're too far away" thinking is the offense. The passing offense was not great nor was the red zone offense but that pass game got measurably better with the addition of a very good WR1 and missing one of the best anchors of any OL was more of a problem than we anticipated. The dumbest thing said in the NFL is that casual "next man up" as if that loss will not be a problem.

So, what is half full glass of the offense? I am not mentioning the QB because that will derail a team thread into another QB debate but he will be the QB and he will have a new deal. RB1 is solid and may even get used more in the pass game. WR1 is solid and #2 made some great strides and looks like a real keeper. Slot is a ? at this time. The TE's showed some improvement and that might get addressed in the draft on the 2nd day. OL? According to Yosemite, he is 90-95% and that's the best news for the OL. Williams will get a badly needed soph off season and now knows what it takes to play at this level and I believe the OL gets some attention in the draft as well. The OC is an unknown but we all agreed the old one had to go so my glass gets half full on that.

So, here's what I don't get about the half empty glasses here. The team came back from 3-5 to win the division and took the eventual NFC team to OT but because they gave up a ridiculous amount of rushing yards, it's doom and gloom? Hell, they took them to OT while giving up those yards. They picked an inexperienced OC, but one lauded for his smarts by others, and that's an automatic half empty when it is an entirely unknown?

Well, you can feel however you want but this past season was a great one to me. I gave this team up for dead and while I agreed with the Copper trade saw little benefit to this season. I saw a young D come together with two exceptional LB's for the future and one of the DB's considered top 4, when did that last happen?

Ya know my best advice to those with those half empty glasses? Well, I am giving it anyway. Stop drinking the poison. The Kool-Aid drinkers get accused of Pollyanna thinking but what about the Doomers? You might not admit it, but drinking that 23 years of futility is a poisoned well. It affects everything about how you might be more optimistic about this season. It is so polluted that any good years are buried because of the playoffs losses. And at the first sign of struggle, that poison rises like bile. We condition ourselves to expect the worst.

Those past years have nothing to do with this coming year while this past year has everything to do with it. They have a D making progress that will be kept together and an O that improved during the year. Until proven otherwise, the Cowboys are a contender.
 

QuincyCarterEra

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,324
Reaction score
10,736
That's today, but what about the discussion of offseason improvements in the OP. Can the personnel issues improve?

Yes sir! They absolutely can, outside of the last one.

They also can be weakened with cuts.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Yup. More JAG's are not going to help.

Exactly right, and that's part of what prompted me to start this thread. When a team has a large number of positions on both sides of the ball that are vital to upgrade, you can't help but fill some of them with JAG's. But if it comes down to just 3-4 spots the task isn't nearly so daunting.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
They took the eventual NFC SB team to OT on their turf and were the best team in the NFL in close games. They beat the other NFCCG team during the regular season like they've not been beaten in a long time.

How far away is tricky because that is largely dependent on what the teams we consider to be ahead of the Cowboys do to improve and do they? How do LA, NO, CHI get better?

The hand wringing about this team comes down to the offense struggling too much, that Indy game and the run D in LA. Good teams are going to have those games that cause the fans to question everything and forget the one true thing, Any Given Sunday. Why do we think that came about? Good team stumbling against inferior teams. What happened in IND and LA were not indicative of this season or this team, just a bad game and bad day for the run D.

Now, the real reason for this "we're too far away" thinking is the offense. The passing offense was not great nor was the red zone offense but that pass game got measurably better with the addition of a very good WR1 and missing one of the best anchors of any OL was more of a problem than we anticipated. The dumbest thing said in the NFL is that casual "next man up" as if that loss will not be a problem.

So, what is half full glass of the offense? I am not mentioning the QB because that will derail a team thread into another QB debate but he will be the QB and he will have a new deal. RB1 is solid and may even get used more in the pass game. WR1 is solid and #2 made some great strides and looks like a real keeper. Slot is a ? at this time. The TE's showed some improvement and that might get addressed in the draft on the 2nd day. OL? According to Yosemite, he is 90-95% and that's the best news for the OL. Williams will get a badly needed soph off season and now knows what it takes to play at this level and I believe the OL gets some attention in the draft as well. The OC is an unknown but we all agreed the old one had to go so my glass gets half full on that.

So, here's what I don't get about the half empty glasses here. The team came back from 3-5 to win the division and took the eventual NFC team to OT but because they gave up a ridiculous amount of rushing yards, it's doom and gloom? Hell, they took them to OT while giving up those yards. They picked an inexperienced OC, but one lauded for his smarts by others, and that's an automatic half empty when it is an entirely unknown?

Well, you can feel however you want but this past season was a great one to me. I gave this team up for dead and while I agreed with the Copper trade saw little benefit to this season. I saw a young D come together with two exceptional LB's for the future and one of the DB's considered top 4, when did that last happen?

Ya know my best advice to those with those half empty glasses? Well, I am giving it anyway. Stop drinking the poison. The Kool-Aid drinkers get accused of Pollyanna thinking but what about the Doomers? You might not admit it, but drinking that 23 years of futility is a poisoned well. It affects everything about how you might be more optimistic about this season. It is so polluted that any good years are buried because of the playoffs losses. And at the first sign of struggle, that poison rises like bile. We condition ourselves to expect the worst.

Those past years have nothing to do with this coming year while this past year has everything to do with it. They have a D making progress that will be kept together and an O that improved during the year. Until proven otherwise, the Cowboys are a contender.

Great post. One of the best I recall on this site.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
Then by all means go right ahead wasting your breath and time.

I will. I believe in competition, which, at it's core, is all about overcoming obstacles. Without obstacles there is no sport, if a person is unwilling to give anything a chance because of obstacles, then they really don't believe in the sport.
 

ShortRound

Well-Known Member
Messages
23,065
Reaction score
80,004
So, we keep saying Jason sucks over and over? It's not going to change in 2019, and saying that repeatedly just sidetracks a discussion about what can do this offseason to get us closer to the goal. I think most of us agree Jason has shortcomings, but even with those we came a rats hair from advancing in both 2014 and 2016, so the hope is with improvements in other areas we can find a way to get past that rat's hair.

I hope we get there, but do you see Garrett out-coaching Belechik? McVey?
 

Cowboys22

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,507
Reaction score
11,384
Nobody said we are "a player away", but lets look at this realistically and then drop the coaching discussion.

Most of us believe Jerry and Jason are not good at their jobs, nevertheless (and I know I'm repeating what I wrote in other posts), we were just a shade away from getting past GB in 2014 and 2016 to advance in the playoffs. If a team can get that close a little added talent can help get past that, or maybe even a lucky break here or there. If we were getting blown out every time we lose a playoff game it would be different, but that isn't the case. Most playoff losses have been by a very narrow margin.

So, we can't change Jason, and there are only so many times and so many ways we can say "Jason sucks", and doing that just throws a road block in front of reasonable discussion about what can change to give the team a better chance. So, the choice is to either contribute to the conversation and thread, or just keep saying "Jason sucks" in some form over and over. I was hoping people would chose to contribute to the conversation and thread.

You simply are wrong. They are not just a shade away because of two good regular seasons and all the other years prove it. It doesn’t matter what players they sign, cut, or draft when you don’t have the coaching capable of putting together gameplans, schemes, plays, and practices that together pave the way to a super bowl. Garrett is 100% incapable of doing it so all other discussions about players are pointless in terms of reaching and/or winning a super bowl. I’m sure it makes some of you feel good to talk about improving the talent level but the truth is, there is already enough talent on the team to win a super bowl. What there isn’t, is a leader with decision making power who has any clue how to do it.
 

Cowboys22

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,507
Reaction score
11,384
I will. I believe in competition, which, at it's core, is all about overcoming obstacles. Without obstacles there is no sport, if a person is unwilling to give anything a chance because of obstacles, then they really don't believe in the sport.

Well, you’re staring at the Atlantic Ocean with a pool float and a paddle thinking that if you can get better weather, you might make it across. Have at it.

I believe in putting all the pieces in place that allow you to compete at the highest level. Dallas has nearly done that but for some reason has neglected or developed unwarranted trust in the most important piece of the puzzle.
 

OmerV

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,864
Reaction score
22,388
CowboysZone ULTIMATE Fan
I hope we get there, but do you see Garrett out-coaching Belechik? McVey?
I really don't see anyone outcoaching Belichick, yet he doesn't win every year (just more than his share of them). And McVey had a terrible offensive game plan in the SB, so I wouldn't say he isn't vulnerable. In the end, while the HC is important, the outcome of games is influenced by more than just who the head coach is. And that's what this thread is designed to focus on.
 
Top