AZ fans worried about Fitz

[firehawk350]

Speed is the overrated statistic for a receiver I've ever seen. Rice was notoriously slow (I remember something like a 4.6 40 time or something crazy like that). Devin Hester ran a 4.5 40. Fitz could stretch the field, even if he's not that fastest guy out there. I don't know why you think possession receivers have to be thrown to short. I'm a Commanders fan, so I sincerely hope that the Cowboys never even get close to Fitz. What a freakin' headache for the next 10 years.

 

[windward]

Honestly though the way the guy runs routes, the speed he has, and great football smarts on top of that he would be such a perfect fit in our offense.

Especially when Romo goes to scramble outside of the pocket.

For some reason he reminds me of a bigger, stronger Terry Glenn.

Just has the hands and everything you like in a receiver.

Didn't he grow up as a ball boy for Minnesota when they had Cris Carter, Jake Reed and Randy Moss?

Hard to have a better teacher on route running than Cris Carter

 

[mr.jameswoods]

TO is here for another two years at most. He needs to be replaced anyway at some point and Fitz is a proven commodity at a very young age. I would certainly and happily give up a 22nd overall pick to get a WR of his *proven* talents, because chances are I couldn't guarantee that by drafting one in that range (or any range).

Again, that 'worse' speed receiver is not that hard to find. Heck it could be Austin or Stanbeck who are here already. Or as I mentioned Stallworth.

Now, that is an argument I can buy. If you want him to replace TO, that's a different argument altogether but if you want him to complement him, I don't agree with that.

 

[wileedog]

I knew Larry didn't have a lot of speed when he came to Arizona but I knew lacking speed alone wouldn't limit him. However, I disagree with you based on what I've seen from him. He is not Michael Irvin. He is slower than Irvin for one thing and he has trouble getting separation. He fights for nearly every ball he gets because he doesn't have the speed to get separation. I've seen both Warner and Leinart take a lot of sacks because Fitzgerald couldn't get separation when they would double Boldin on 3rd and 5. Yes, they have a bad offensive line but it's not always the offensive line. I've seen Fitzgerald make big plays but it's usually because the Cardinals are desperate and throw up junk while Fitz outleaps his defender for the ball in the final 2 minutes. I've also seen him shut down by average corners at times. The Cardinals also throw a lot of interceptions on those same plays.

You can look at his stats from several perspectives. Yes, he has a great yards per catch average but he also has only 4 games with over 100 yards receiving this season. You can say he plays alongside Boldin but Boldin didn't play in 4 games and was hurt in other games. Fitzgerald also had 8 games in which he didn't catch a TD. Also, he is 6-3 and 226 lbs so he is not exactly a light weight and advanced age only causes you to gain weight so he is going to get heavier. Again, he is a good receiver but I would prefer someone who has some speed that can complement TO

Sounds kinda like TO without the sideshow. T.O. is 6-3 224. He had 5 games over 100 yards. He had 5 games without a TD. He disappeared against some bad secondaries. Romo had more than a few INTs trying to force the ball to him. T.O. had more YPC but Fitz had more catches despite Boldin in the lineup. And T.O. had a Pro Bowl QB and O-Line.

Again, Terrell won't be here much longer. Fitz could be here for a decade, and I will certainly take two T.O.'s over a T.O. and a "worse, fast WR".

 

[Bob Sacamano]

Now, that is an argument I can buy. If you want him to replace TO, that's a different argument altogether but if you want him to complement him, I don't agree with that.

so you don't want him because he won't be the #1 right away in Dallas?

 

[slick325]

Sounds kinda like TO without the sideshow. T.O. is 6-3 224. He had 5 games over 100 yards. He had 5 games without a TD. He disappeared against some bad secondaries. Romo had more than a few INTs trying to force the ball to him. T.O. had more YPC but Fitz had more catches despite Boldin in the lineup. And T.O. had a Pro Bowl QB and O-Line.

Again, Terrell won't be here much longer. Fitz could be here for a decade, and I will certainly take two T.O.'s over a T.O. and a "worse, fast WR".

Well put.

 

[kmd24]

Who gives a snot about separation? That is production.

In case you missed it, there was an ongoing argument about separation. Just providing a data point.

 

[wileedog]

In case you missed it, there was an ongoing argument about separation. Just providing a data point.

I didn't miss it.

I was invalidating the argument as irrelevant.

 

[the kid 05]

Didn't he grow up as a ball boy for Minnesota when they had Cris Carter, Jake Reed and Randy Moss?

Hard to have a better teacher on route running than Cris Carter

Yah, i remember my brother talking about Fitz coming out of pitt saying he grew up around the minnesota org and was praying that they drafted him to give them then Culpepper, Moss, Fitz. which would have created havok...but i think they ended up taking Bryant McKenny or something like that and him being super pissed at the time

 

[windward]

Yah, i remember my brother talking about Fitz coming out of pitt saying he grew up around the minnesota org and was praying that they drafted him to give them then Culpepper, Moss, Fitz. which would have created havok...but i think they ended up taking Bryant McKenny or something like that and him being super pissed at the time

Well Fitzgerald went at three to the Cardinals. The Vikes had no chance at him, really.

Instead they took Kenechi Udeze. I'd be pissed at that, too.

 

[Temo]

All Chris Carter did was catch TD's and be a playmaker. He is a HOF who was money.

If you dont want a player like that, then you dont know football

I said a Chris Carter TYPE, not Chris Carter incarnate. AND I said he was a nice player, and I NEVER said I didn't want him outright. I just don't want to overpay him, and that's exactly what you do in free agency with star players... you overpay. Elementary Auction mathematics. Some players (not many) are worth overpaying for, Fitz isn't one of them.

 

[kmd24]

I didn't miss it.

I was invalidating the argument as irrelevant.

So when jameswoods argues that LF's production might be misleading because he can't get separation, you think a logical rejoinder is that LF is productive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy

 

[CF74]

100 catches, 1400 yards, 10 TDs with a combination of Kurt Warner and Matt Leinart throwing him the ball.

Who gives a snot about separation? That is production.

Holy Moley!!! I had no idea what all the fuss was about. Look who is #1:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/statistics?stat=rec&league=nfc&season=2&year=2007


This is the guy we need to fix the short pass/play problem in our passing game..

 

[mr.jameswoods]

I didn't miss it.

I was invalidating the argument as irrelevant.

I don't think it's irrelevant. If I didn't watch the Cardinals plays as much as I did, I would agree with you guys. I agree that his stats are impressive but I've seen how he acquires those stats. Most of his catches are made either in soft zones in which there isn't a defender in sight or if he leaps up for the ball. I just don't want a guy whose primary game is to simply out leap and fight for balls because he can't get separation. That's Larry Fitzgerald. Coach Whisenhunt is a pretty bright coach. He doesn't fall for hype. He was critical of Matt Leinart's footwork and preparation. People thought he was being hard on Leinart because of his reputatio and Whisenhunt was proven right. If he is saying this about Larry Fitzgerald, i wouldn't dismiss it.

I would like Hostile's opinion on this because I know he is from Arizona and has been watching the Cardinals for a long time like myself.

 

[wileedog]

So when jameswoods argues that LF's production might be misleading because he can't get separation, you think a logical rejoinder is that LF is productive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy

No, the logical rejoinder is there is no such thing as 'misleading' production.

You don't just fall out of bed and have a 1400 yard, 10 TD season. And he's done it twice in his 4 years in the league.

I don't care if he runs down the field on his hands and catches the ball with his feet. If he can produce those kinds of numbers doing that, you don't pass on him for someone 'worse, but fast.'

 

[wileedog]

I don't think it's irrelevant. If I didn't watch the Cardinals plays as much as I did, I would agree with you guys. I agree that his stats are impressive but I've seen how he acquires those stats. Most of his catches are made either in soft zones in which there isn't a defender in sight or if he leaps up for the ball. I just don't want a guy whose primary game is to simply out leap and fight for balls because he can't get separation. That's Larry Fitzgerald. Coach Whisenhunt is a pretty bright coach. He doesn't fall for hype. He was critical of Matt Leinart's footwork and preparation. People thought he was being hard on Leinart because of his reputatio and Whisenhunt was proven right. If he is saying this about Larry Fitzgerald, i wouldn't dismiss it.

I would like Hostile's opinion on this because I know he is from Arizona and has been watching the Cardinals for a long time like myself.

They don't give out awards for 'seperation.'

Again, who cares how he has produced 2 1400 yard seasons in the last 3 years, what makes you think he can't do it again with TO and Witten out there running routes with him and Romo throwing the ball instead of Warner/Leinart? Production is production. Barber ain't the prettiest RB to ever take a handoff either, but the yards tally up anyway.

I will absolutely give you that if TO were 28 maybe I would agree more with your argument that we would be better off finding a TGlenn clone or other burner. But because TO only has a couple of years left, this makes all the sense in the world to me.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I thought this may be interesting conversation about Fitzgerald. I got this information from the AZ message board.

Fitzgerald has met playing time thresholds, his original 2008 salary of $1.1 million has grown to $4.6 million. He is due a $5 million bonus for making the Pro Bowl back in 2005, and he made the Pro Bowl this year he will be due an additional $5 million and that makes it 14.6 in salary. Add his signing bonus(2.7Mil) and that makes it 17.3 million.
Next year (2009) his base should be around 17mil.

These numbers are all jumbled together. How could he have not already been paid the $5M for the 2005 probowl? That was three years ago!

 

[YosemiteSam]

I don't think it's irrelevant. If I didn't watch the Cardinals plays as much as I did, I would agree with you guys. I agree that his stats are impressive but I've seen how he acquires those stats. Most of his catches are made either in soft zones in which there isn't a defender in sight or if he leaps up for the ball. I just don't want a guy whose primary game is to simply out leap and fight for balls because he can't get separation. That's Larry Fitzgerald. Coach Whisenhunt is a pretty bright coach. He doesn't fall for hype. He was critical of Matt Leinart's footwork and preparation. People thought he was being hard on Leinart because of his reputatio and Whisenhunt was proven right. If he is saying this about Larry Fitzgerald, i wouldn't dismiss it.

I would like Hostile's opinion on this because I know he is from Arizona and has been watching the Cardinals for a long time like myself.

What the hell are you talking about? Are you freakin on drugs? There is something wrong with you or you're just a hater.

Larry Fitzgerald has been in the league four years. Over those four year he has averaged 1,136 yards per season. How many freakin receivers in this league have averaged 1,000+ yards every f'in season they've been in the league? Did I also mention he averages 8.5 TDs per season? How about the 82.5 receptions per season?

Get off the dope cause you're spreading stupid. :bang2:

 

[kmd24]

No, the logical rejoinder is there is no such thing as 'misleading' production.

You don't just fall out of bed and have a 1400 yard, 10 TD season. And he's done it twice in his 4 years in the league.

I don't care if he runs down the field on his hands and catches the ball with his feet. If he can produce those kinds of numbers doing that, you don't pass on him for someone 'worse, but fast.'

I guess you're conceding the point that LF doesn't get good separation?

I think a lot of LF's production, too, BTW. I also thought a lot of CP's production in Denver, but it has slipped since he was traded to Washington.

 

[YosemiteSam]

I guess you're conceding the point that LF doesn't get good separation?

I think a lot of LF's production, too, BTW. I also thought a lot of CP's production in Denver, but it has slipped since he was traded to Washington.

That has to do with the offensive line. Portis is still a workhorse of a back. He just isn't averaging 5.5 YPC in Washington because Washington's run blocking isn't what Denver's was during that time. Denver was taking what people considered average Joe's and producing big rushing numbers.

Don't ever let people tell you the offensive line doesn't effect a running back. So many people dismiss the Cowboys great offensive line of the 90s when they talk about how great Emmitt Smith was.

Emmitt didn't buy them Rolex's for nothing!